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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:52 pm 
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Tuttle has come out with a 2nd edition of Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques by the British Martial Arts historian Mark Bishop.

I find the following reference to the Shanghai Kingai-noon intriguing as I am not acquainted with the style.

The quotation refers to Shinko Matayoshi (1886-1947), the founder of the Matayoshi kobudo line who was an avid preservationist and student of Chinese weapons.

Quote:
Prior to 1934, Matayoshi "next travelled to Shanghai where he learned ... herbal medicine, acupuncture and a form of Shaolin Temple boxing known as Kingai-noon that is considered to be a sister style of Kanbun Uechi's Pangai-noon, as they both have the same Sesan (Bishop's spelling) kata and differ in name only by the first Chinese character. Before finally returning to Okinawa in 1934, Matayoshi learned another form of Shaolin at Fuchou.


Matayoshi was also a student of the Chinese tea merchant Gokenki who while residing in Naha, Okinawa taught the white crane style of kung-fu. It was at this same period that Uechi Kanbun Sensei was still in seclusion but meeting regularly with Gokenki. According to the Kyhon, Gokenki knew Shushiwa and trained with him periodically on his regular visits to his home city of Fuchow. Gokenki and Uechi again according to the Kyhon examined at length white crane hand techniques.

Through Gokenki Uechi Kanbun was able to maintain at a distance a relationship with his teacher, Shushiwa, and work on key techniques of the Uechi San Sei Ryu and possibly parts of the Fuchow Suparimpei.

It would be interesting to explore any possible relationship between Kingai-noon and the Fuchow Suparimpei.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:12 am 
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Kingainoon is thought to be a name applied to what Higashionna learned in China, and thus what Goju Ryu derives from. Bishop may even mention this in his section on Goju Ryu (I don't have the book handy at the moment).
Here are some links relating this possible Kingainoon/Goju Ryu connection:
http://www.tarleton.edu/students/st_rjo ... istory.htm
http://www.meibukan-goju-ryu-usa.com/higaonna.htm

The concept that "Kingainoon" and "Pangainoon" were sister Fuzhou styles and that Goju Ryu derived from the former and Uechi Ryu from the latter can be used to explain similarities between Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu.

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 Post subject: Kingai-noon References
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:43 am 
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Thanks Glenn.

I'd like to share some research I did for my own curiosity:

#1 Source:
[url]forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?p=36579& sid=1f1b656df10fdc0bdf672faeb2082b5[/url]9
#1 Data:
The late Matayoshi sensei's Karate was called Kingai Noon(all but the first kanji are the same as Pangai Noon) and was supposed to be closely related to Pangai Noon. Unfortunately, Matayoshi sensei reportedly never taught his Karate to anyone.

#2 Source:
http://www.togkf.org/history.html

#2 Data:

While a young man, Master Higashionna (already an accomplished martial artist) was a seaman on a ship engaged in the China trade. On one of these expeditions a young boy fell overboard. Master Higashionna bravely jumped overboard and saved the drowning youth.
The boy's grateful father happened to be a well-known Chinese Boxing master, Master Ryu Ryu Ko. When Master Ryu offered Master Higashionna a reward, the young Higashionna asked for instruction in Ryu Ryu Ko's Chinese Boxing (Kingai-noon) System. Master Higashionna studied in Fukien, China for thirty years and upon his return, brought most of the forms and techniques tht would later form the basis of the Goju-ryu system (as well as many others).


Sources #'s 1 & 2 tie Kingai-noon to early Goju-Ryu as does Glenn's information.

#3 Source:
http://www.womenskaratetour.org/History2.htm%20-%2084k

#3 Data:

Years earlier, at Shushabu's dojo, Kanbun Uechi met a Chinese man named Gokenki. Gokenki (1886 - 1940) was a native of Foochow city and also a Master in Fukien Shaolin, [52] a method of Kingainoon which specialized in the Hakutsuraken (white crane fist boxing). Kingainoon is a sister style of Uechi's Pan-gai-nun. Their martial exchange took place at not only Shushabu's dojo but also in Nanching.[53] Eventually, Gokenki would move in 1912 to Naha, Okinawa and set up a tea shop. Eventually he became a Japanese citizen and adopted the name "Yoshikawa."[54]

This source, by the way, is IMHO the internet standard for Uechi history.

Clearly, Shushiwa is linked to Gokenki who visited with him on later occasions whilst in a relationship with Uechi Kanbun who was then back in Okinawa, training but not teaching, and spending long sessions with Gokenki on white crane hand techniques. Who's to say these are not the same techniques that appear in the Fuchow Suparimpei or uniquely in the prelude movements to Toyoma's San Sei Ryu?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:00 am 
Some very interesting stuff but I try not to read too much into similar names.

Similarities do not mean the same.

That there was a sharing of training is a high probability between Uechi Kanbun and Gokenki. :D

But similarities and similar names of forms or people can mean nothing.

There is a White Crane “Three Battles” Form.

I could reread that as Three Battles/Conflicts/Wars.

Or I could just read this as a White Crane Sanchin.

And who is to say it is not the very White Crane Sanchin done by Gokenki himself? :wink:

Okay so now I am just playing but you see the problem reading too much into similar moves or similar names. :lol:

Similar does not mean the same.

White Crane Three Battles Form:

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=cU5CEfDLHPI&search=kata


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:46 am 
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A White Crane (Bai He) online video site. Check out the ones for "San Jan".
http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/videos.html

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:21 am 
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Thanks Rick. And I agree with you to a certain point.

Let's start out here:

Quote:
Similar does not mean the same.


On the face of it this is a "no brainer" statement and everyohe glosses over it and agrees without really thinking it through.

Similar does not mean identical but similar can be the same.

Let's take your video clips as a reference. They may not be available now but you will know of what I speak.

You have a video of Dana Sheets doing San Sei Ryu. I do the same San Sei Ryu as Dana. We had Ken Nakamatsu as models in our learning lineage. This is the San Sei Ryu basic format that is now done by practitioners of Uechi Ryu internationally. This is essentially the same San Sei Ryu that the Shinjo group performs.

Now I don't know if GEM demonstrates one San Sei Ryu and teaches another. In the 33rd anniversary video of the death of Kanbun Uechi Mattson Sensei performs his San Sei Ryu. You know this San Sei Ryu because you do it this way. You don't do it the way Dana does or I do or that Masters Nakamatsu do it or the way the Shinjo group do it. It's not the standard Uechi San Sei Ryu.

For instance, after the double hadijke strike 45 deg to the right you turn 45 deg to the left (north) and do the circular down block and pull across motion (catch) as in Seichin. We do the same movement but in another direction, 45 deg to the west of North.

George Sensei I'm sure does San Sei Ryu the way Master Uechi Kanei Sensei taught him. Jimmy Maloney learned it from George and that's the way you do it. George is exercising his veteran's perogatives and privledges and you Canadians follow his precedent and have not changed to the mainline format.

This is all to say that our San Sei Ryu katas are not identical but we each recognize that they are the same kata. Then you and I and George and Jimmy and Dana can look at Toyama Sensei perform San Sei Ryu as he was taught by Uechi Kanbun Sensei. His San Sei Ryu is not identical to either the GEM format or what is now the Uechi standard but it is the same kata.

You do agree that Toyama's kata is not identical to your model don't you? Even though he turns to the same direction for the technique explained above. You do agree however that it is the same kata, yes?

These kata can be different, not identical, but the same.

The Fuchou Superenpei (Superempi) is not either the same or identical to the Goju superempi. It's a different kata. The Fuchou Superenpei may be the Shu family form, perhaps not identical, different, but the same kata.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:43 am 
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For what it's worth, George Mentions the Kingai system in Uechiru Karatedo, and he also calls it a Goju Ryu prequel.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:09 am 
John:

And I agree with you to a point. :D

You are right in that if we watch Dana’s, or George’s or Nakahodo’s or Toyama’s or Jim’s Sanseirui we can say they are similar and the same Kata but that is because the root moves are the same just expressed differently. 8)

So to that point I certainly agree with you.

But If we compare Goju’s Sanchin with Uechi Sanchin we can say there are similarities but we also recognize that they are not the same Kata.

So it is there I disagree.

For instance the similarity in names (from your Bishop quote):

“a form of Shaolin Temple boxing known as Kingai-noon that is considered to be a sister style of Kanbun Uechi's Pangai-noon, as they both have the same Sesan (Bishop's spelling) kata and differ in name only by the first Chinese character.”

Wil – son and John –son only differ by the first part but are entirely different. :wink:

I understand the words are not your John’s so I do not expect you to have to explain them.

However, this is a problem I se in people crossing over things when the names, particularly names in another tongue, are simply similar and they make the leap that they must be the same.

So we can agree that if the root forms are indeed the same then they will be so similar that we will recognize them as being of the same root.

Which is why I ask to see the Sanchin of any system we think might be Uechi’s root – we should clearly recognize it even if it has been altered greatly. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:19 am 
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Rick Wilson wrote:
However, this is a problem I se in people crossing over things when the names, particularly names in another tongue, are simply similar and they make the leap that they must be the same.

And we are talking about words not presented in their original form of writing.

If you only hear the word "where" or "wear" you do not automatically know which one is being used, you need to either see the spelling or hear it in context in a sentence. Think of all the other groups of words in English that sound the same but have different meanings.

Now toss in transliteration from one form of writing (in this case Japanese characters) to another form (in this case western alphabetic) based on sound, with the added hindrance that often we cannot see or recognize the original writing. For example in Japanese the sound written in western alphabetic as "kara" can mean either "empty" or "China" and each has its own distinct Japanese character, but based on sound they both transliterate into western alphabetic as "kara". Without seeing the original Japanese characters we cannot know if any given use of the term "karate" means "empty hand" or "China hand". So if all we see is the western-alphabetic form, we can only guess at the meaning.

What Rick is getting at is that for all we know, "kingainoon" could be another example like "karate" or "where/wear".

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:42 am 
Thanks Glenn. :D

Dana posted this on another forum and I thought it was relevant to this discussion of terms and what they may or may not mean simply because they are similar:

This is a short excerpt from a recent article in Patrick McCarthy's newsletter
Uchinadi©
An Informal Journal for the Progressive Traditionalist
4th Quarter 2005, No. 41
IRKRS

Article:
Okinawa’s Bushi
Karate Gentlemen
By Charles C. Goodin


quote:

Was the problem with the word “Bushi” itself? Fortunately, my sensei, Katsuhiko Shinzato, is a professor of linguistics at the Okinawa International University. I emailed a series of questions to him about this subject. He explained that although “Bushi” uses the same kanji and is pronounced the same in Okinawa and Japan, it means different things. In Japan, a “Bushi” was a member of the warrior class. In Okinawa, the term “Bushi” was honorific. It was used to refer to a Karate practitioner who was respected and revered not only for of his superior martial arts skill, but for being a civilized, principled gentleman as well. “Bushi” did not mean the Japanese “samurai.” As evidence of this, even the Okinawan King’s official guards, who were referred to as “samurai” in Okinawa, were not referred to as “Bushi.”


The original thread is on a different topic and can be found here:

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=15408


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