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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 1999 6:41 pm 
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Location: Oxford, UK
Hi - I am an ex-student of Terry Dukes' Mushindo organisation, in which I trained for about 5 years, getting to green belt.
The organisation is now having some problems - see homepage at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~roop/
George Mattson mentioned that he had investigated Mr. Dukes back in the 70's and found that much of what was called 'Mushindo' seemed to him to have been copied and fabricated. Does anyone have any further information or comment to make about this? Terry Dukes himself said that *his* style was original, and others had tried to copy him...
Thanks in advance,
Rupert Alison


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 1999 9:01 pm 
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Rupert

Ahhhh, you tread on thin ice here. Reputations can be subjective. Fortunately a forum like this one is a good place to let the disinfecting light of day shine on "truth".

I am aware of the Terry Dukes issue. I have seen pictures of emblems that Terry has used that appear to be "rip offs" of those used by others in the Uechiryu organization. Very interesting, but not exactly damning. So who holds the Real Truth (tm)? Who is in possession of the holy grail?

My suggestion is to check the sources. George's lineage is easy to trace, and many of the instructors he worked with (like Tomoyose Ryuko) are still alive today. The literature is out there from multiple sources (not just George's) to support his learning path and body of knowledge.

My mind was made up about Terry Dukes when I read a book (The Boddisatva (??) Warriors) published by him under that strange Indian pseudonym. Very interesting book if you believe everything that was written. Well....check the references. The volumes and volumes of references. The references written in Sanskrit and Mandarin and other foreign languages. Do you REALLY believe that he read all those references in the native language? If he did, well then he's a modern day Michelangelo. And if he is, the how come he's the only source of information about his lineage? Are there any other outside sources of repute that can back up the claims of his lineage?

Do the research yourself; don't take my word for it. Don't take Terry or George's word. If you want to understand the strength of a structure, start with the foundation. And get OUTSIDE opinions on sources and contacts and teaching lineages.

Terry may or may not be a brilliant martial artist. But he's going to have to do a little better job than he's done to convince me he is as learned as he purports himself to be from his writings. I've seen that brand of reference padding before. I got nailed in high school for doing the same thing on a term paper. It was a lesson well learned.

Good luck with your studies. And remember that regardless of who you work with, your own reputation is yours to be made. Good, secure, and smart people eventually find a worthy path.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 01-14-99).]


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 1999 10:11 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
I've made my views known on previous threads, but one point which I hadn't made before:

Terry copied the logo off "The Way of Karate"! How do I know? Because Tuttle used the design off the Gi of the student who posed for the cover picture. This student had the patch upside down. Tuttle reproduced this error on the inside cover. (Its like someone duplicating a country's flag upside down) You won't find this design in this form anywhere except on the covers of my book and as used by Terry Dukes as the Mushindo logo!

Of course, his explanation regarding the logo's origin is much diffrent.

------------------
GEM


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 1999 6:52 pm 
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I read (or read "at") the Bodhivattva Warriors and wonder what any of you out there who are scholars of Buddhism think of the work?
The notion that Sanchin was changed over the centuries is not particularly disturbing to me, in fact, given the universality of the form to the south China coastal civil fighting traditions, it's pretty hard to imagine that it wouldn't change. It's also not hard to imagine that to whatever degree it was originally weighted towards a spiritual practice would have changed dramatically as its focus became more balanced and it was exported to Okinawa.
It's always hard to imagine that an individual was designated as the repository of the TRUTH (tm.) To really get a laugh some time, tune in to the Wing Chun disputes in that realm.

------------------
David


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 1999 12:17 pm 
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Location: Oxford, UK
I have now discovered a very interesting newspaper article about Mr. Dukes, dating from 1974, which details some major problems
he was having at the time. I have posted it (with permission) at:
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~roop/chop.html
Does anyone have any comments, or even know any more of the details of what happened?
Many thanks,
Rupert Alison

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 01-21-99).]


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 1999 1:56 pm 
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Location: Leeds, UK
Rupert,

You may or may not remember me - I had some brief email discussions with you about joining the BSBA about a year ago. I did in the end join.

Clearly, I've seen the web page changes, but is it possible for you to tell me any more information? As a member, I am clearly keen to know what is happening, and whether I too should be revoking my membership. Please feel free to email me if that seems a better option.

In the meantime, in comment on the post above regarding Buddhism - I haven't actually read the Bodhisattva Warriors, so I cannot comment directly. However, the claim is that the BSBA combines both Chan and a lineage of Shingon from China. So far as I am aware, and as a reseacrh student in Chinese Buddhism, no lineage of Shingon (Chenyen) has been found to remain in China after about the 12th century. Its influence was cerainly pervasive, but the lineage itself went to Japan.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 1999 2:47 pm 
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Location: Oxford, UK
Hi Aaron and thanks for your comments. YEs I do remember speaking with you on Email a while back. I no longer have your address though - could you Email me or re-post it here?
Another ex-member of Mushindo recently posted me the following information:
"The Uechi Ryu people claim that Mushindo is Nagaboshi's invention - together with its history. Some of my contacts in USA (I have done some investigation on my own in last 3
years or so)- and these are people coming from Chinese and Okinawan family styles and their record-keepers say that some names from Mushindo lineage chart they know of, but that they do not match their records. As
for others, nobody I've contacted so far had the faintest idea of those people, and Okinawa is a small place. I suspect that at least someone should know them. As for Master Ching, the picture was shown to one of 3
greatest living Ch'an teachers (a Chinese) and he does not recognize the man on the photo and has never heard of Master Ching."
So the plot thickens...
Rupert


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 1999 3:11 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
I was very upset years ago when Terry began this whole Mushindo creation and had hoped he would turn his considerable energy and creativity towards the study of a legitimate martial art or, 'fess up and admit that Mushindo was his personal creation.

Although this later course of action was not very popular back in the 70s, it would not be such a controversial act today. Even on Okinawa, where perhaps 10 styles of martial arts existed in the 50s, there has blossomed more than 50 systems, many with questionable links to China or early Okinawan masters.

Outside of Okinawa it is rare to find teachers still in contact with their instructors or issue certificates with authentic signatures/seals from their teacher's organization.

Back in the 60s and 70s there was a lot more pressure on teachers to maintain a viable link and contact with their instructors. Roots, tradition and loyalty were an integral part of what the MA was preaching. During this period of time, England was just being introduced to the MA. Terry didn't have the contacts or links. But he did have a creative and fruitful imagination.

Terry: I know you are reading this. . . You were outed in the 70s and you are uncovered once again. Apologize and do it right next go-around. I'll be the first to shake your hand and wish you well.

A hundred years from now, how do you want to be remembered?


------------------
GEM


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 1999 7:19 pm 
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Location: Leeds, UK
Hi Rupert,

My email address is: powellaj@netcomuk.co.uk

I would genuinely appreciate an email so I know what's going on and can make up my mind on the issue. Is this purely a question of authenticity of the Mushindokai style or something deeper? Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing from you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 1999 12:03 am 
Just a note of solidarity for those disillusioned MKA students out there...
There is life after TD, and remember that much of what you have practised is self-validifying, inasmuch a teacher cannot make you discover... I quit the group in January 1988 and was more or less TD's right hand at the time. I am aware of the ways in which he has abused his rank, and the ruthless way he has manipulated people who come under his "spell".

The fundamental phenomenon afflicting his followers is in common with "cults" - the experience of clinging to ideals and consequential clouding of commonsense judgements. He plays on this very well - become one of "us" - don't be ordinary and of no signicance etc. etc.

I have continued to train - I currently practise Matsumura Orthodox Shorinryu, and qualified as a Teacher of Iyengar Yoga.

Discard TD - get on with growing from your discoveries - I wish you strength - congratulations on breaking your bonds!

E-mail (for one more week!):
bill.rowles@ticona.co.uk


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 1999 12:04 am 
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I left T Dukes organisation at the end of 1987. Since the beginning of 1988 he has had no black belts at all in the UK.

Having spent several years training at a distance from him I lived for two years at his 'Buddhist' Centre in Norfolk, UK. I organised much of the work of the various societies and sadly became aware, through research into his background and increasing contacts with others, of the scale of the deception he had perpetuated for many years. Unfortunately very few groups were prepared to explain why they simply shut their doors at the sound of his name.

If only the web and e-mail had been available in those days.

Like other despots he was able to continue because he could control information. He was able to bury the past with each generation of seniors who left (roughly every five years). Now, thanks to forums like this one, people have free access to knowledge and to genuine individuals. Histories can be remembered.

It also means that people, otherwise left isolated after placing their trust and ideals in one who purports to be a religious teacher and Reverend of the Buddhist Church, can obtain help and reassurance.

My best wishes to those who are currently trying to separate the truth from the fiction.

If I can help please contact me at:
david@gillon70.freeserve.co.uk

I would also appreciate hearing from anyone who can clarify T Dukes real history.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 1999 1:07 am 
David,

go to forum archives and search for "terry dukes", and you'll find some interestng stuff under "dojo roundtable", i believe.

------------------
maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 1999 12:22 am 
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Location: UK
Hello,

A new website has been set up to discuss and provide in-depth information on one of the most enigmatic books on Martial Arts published thus far:"The Bodhisattva Warriors" by Terence Dukes / Shifu Nagaboshi Tomio (Weiser 1994)
I invite evrybody to have a look at:

http://www.bodhisattva.connectfree.co.uk

I welcome emails from martial artists who have read this book and have comments about it.

I downloaded the dojo roundtable discussions that were held at the Uechi site in April 98 and I wonder if I could reproduce the thread on Bodhisattva Warriors. Many people had difficulties with downloading the full archive (more than 2 MByte) and it would be nice to have all views about this book assembled on one site.

Much has been said about Dukes, but I feel that a serious discussion of the contents of his book has been lacking thus far. I look forward to your contributions.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 1999 8:59 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I am not in the business of trashing reputations, nor do I like to make blanket statements about works that took considerable effort, no matter how far the point of view is from my own.

In the case of The Bodhisattva Warriors I make an exception. Careful review of the book and its bibliography reveal an extremely high probability of "reference padding." This is a technique employed by the dishonest to make a published work appear to be more evidence- or fact-based than is actually the case. It often hides serious flaws in the research and compilation of the material.

Let's just say that, after careful review of the book, I regretted giving money for it. The author does not deserve recognition as an authority, and the book is a waste of time for the serious student of martial history. In the published world, reputation comes before everything else. Terry Dukes trashed his through dishonesty.

Don't ask me what I really think.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 1999 1:13 am 
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I received a copy of Dukes' book as a gift and I read it cover to cover. It gave me a chill up my spine. Reminded me of a few ( fortunately very few) rather confused individuals who came to the martial arts in the 1960's and 70's, learned some physical skills, and then made a huge leap into their own fantasies of esoteric knowledge. Even set themselves up as "teachers" and experts on the "inner mind". I don't have the book in front of me (I passed it on to a dojo-mate)but I recall one particularly bizarre bit of logic... Dukes suggests that the characters which make up the surname Uechi can be translated 'earth' and 'air', and that this should somehow be obvious to practitioners of Uechi-ryu karate since the kata are made up of 'earth movements' and 'sky movements'. In my line of work - clinical psychology - we call such thinking disordered, a sign of serious mental imbalance.I found little in the book to redeem the sense that Mr. Dukes had embarked on a project to indulge his private fantasy life. I can refute it, because I did read it. The one positive element of the experience? I appreciated the gift from a friend... the thought was nice.


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