This particular hand position is a bit foreign to me. I don't remember anything like it in Shotokan. It seems to be a less effective weapon than the fist, not as solid.
Would someone explain it's purpose in both kata and real-life?
Thanks
-Walkman
Question on the Half Fist
Moderator: Available
Hi Walkman...I just picked up on this...
What do you mean by the "half fist"?
In Uechi Ryu we use a type of hand position we call "Hiraken" in which the open "knife-hand" (Shuto) is modified by curling the four fingers so that the fingertips meet the fleshy palm, but the back of the hand is more or less straight.
We use it in various ways as a striking tool (2nd knuckles) or as a rising "block" which happens to intercept the opponent's nose while deflecting a facial punch (how unfortunate!)
Or do you mean, by "half fist", a more conventional fist but striking with only the 1st and 2nd main knuckles?
If so, then this is entirely universal in most Karate and is not even emphasised in Uechi Ryu.
We call a more-or-less plain fist punch a "Seiken" punch.
However these were added later to the Uechi curriculum and Kata, and not present in the main three Kata.
Amazing, isn't it, that the plain old John Wayne fist punch is not part of the original Uechi Kata. The one thing people so naturally do.
But several wicked alternatives are provided if a person cares to really develop them.
The whole thing about the plain ol' punch is that it's an instinctual blunt-force action, not much targetted or refined unless you're a boxer. It's a whacker and works best with lots of meat throwing it.
But hey, us Karateka, we like to think we're so cool, calm, collected and refined that we need not stoop to the common punch; why, we have much more sophisticated and ***Whack!***
...I'm sorry, what was your question?...
NM
What do you mean by the "half fist"?
In Uechi Ryu we use a type of hand position we call "Hiraken" in which the open "knife-hand" (Shuto) is modified by curling the four fingers so that the fingertips meet the fleshy palm, but the back of the hand is more or less straight.
We use it in various ways as a striking tool (2nd knuckles) or as a rising "block" which happens to intercept the opponent's nose while deflecting a facial punch (how unfortunate!)
Or do you mean, by "half fist", a more conventional fist but striking with only the 1st and 2nd main knuckles?
If so, then this is entirely universal in most Karate and is not even emphasised in Uechi Ryu.
We call a more-or-less plain fist punch a "Seiken" punch.
However these were added later to the Uechi curriculum and Kata, and not present in the main three Kata.
Amazing, isn't it, that the plain old John Wayne fist punch is not part of the original Uechi Kata. The one thing people so naturally do.
But several wicked alternatives are provided if a person cares to really develop them.
The whole thing about the plain ol' punch is that it's an instinctual blunt-force action, not much targetted or refined unless you're a boxer. It's a whacker and works best with lots of meat throwing it.
But hey, us Karateka, we like to think we're so cool, calm, collected and refined that we need not stoop to the common punch; why, we have much more sophisticated and ***Whack!***
...I'm sorry, what was your question?...
NM
Yes, that's pretty well it; the Hiraken. Some of us might tuck the thumb a little farther in to the palm. The tip of your thumb appears to be pressed against the tip of you index finger. Don't know what that is about.
Hirakens are generally used where:
1: The fingertips are to be protected ( perhaps in a downblocking application against a kick)
2: Where the "block" is actually an attack to the opponent's face, getting inside the punch. When the Hiraken is used for this purpose, the defender's elbow also locks out the attacker's inside-elbow, thereby protecting your own face.
This requires more than the fist technique; some specific Uechi Ryu arm-angle techniques are employed as well.
3: Where a quick, hard strike to the opponent's eye socket is needed. Again, the fingertips are protected while a shot to the skull is executed...just in case you miss.
Also targeted to the upper lip, just under the nose. Sometimes both hands perform the Hiraken in a kind of "wedging" strike. I think this application is against a frontal grab, inside the opponent's arms.
Very important point: It's not delivered by the arms. It's conveyed by the arms. The whole body and your friend, the ground, delivers this "message". The Hiraken just happens to be the "point" that contacts the opponent.
I wouldn't worry about bending your index finger; the Hiraken is actually a flatter hand position than you show!
Just make a nice tight "knife hand" (nukite), keeping your thumb well tucked-in, then roll your fingertips back into the edge of the palm. That's pretty well it.
NM
Hirakens are generally used where:
1: The fingertips are to be protected ( perhaps in a downblocking application against a kick)
2: Where the "block" is actually an attack to the opponent's face, getting inside the punch. When the Hiraken is used for this purpose, the defender's elbow also locks out the attacker's inside-elbow, thereby protecting your own face.
This requires more than the fist technique; some specific Uechi Ryu arm-angle techniques are employed as well.
3: Where a quick, hard strike to the opponent's eye socket is needed. Again, the fingertips are protected while a shot to the skull is executed...just in case you miss.
Also targeted to the upper lip, just under the nose. Sometimes both hands perform the Hiraken in a kind of "wedging" strike. I think this application is against a frontal grab, inside the opponent's arms.
Very important point: It's not delivered by the arms. It's conveyed by the arms. The whole body and your friend, the ground, delivers this "message". The Hiraken just happens to be the "point" that contacts the opponent.
I wouldn't worry about bending your index finger; the Hiraken is actually a flatter hand position than you show!
Just make a nice tight "knife hand" (nukite), keeping your thumb well tucked-in, then roll your fingertips back into the edge of the palm. That's pretty well it.
NM
That type of strike I believe is used as a killing blow.It will take a bit of time to build it up until it is good and hard.You have to tuck your thumb in to brace the index finger.
Some targets could be
the neck
ribs
armpit
temple (very dangerous)
to the back muscles
It is a very effective strike when used correctly.Your not going to hit somebody in the forehead with that strike.
Some targets could be
the neck
ribs
armpit
temple (very dangerous)
to the back muscles
It is a very effective strike when used correctly.Your not going to hit somebody in the forehead with that strike.
Half hard, half soft
Interesting thread......and referencing the photo (you guys are so talented!)
I would recommend forming the Hiraken by bracing the index and second and third fingers with your thumb. The first joint of the thumb generally falls between the first joints of the index and second finger with the "tips" of the index and second and third fingers locked on the thumb. You should have the flesh of the thumb contacting the finders above the cuticle of the fingernails. (If not a hard strike-been there- will rip the cuticles back into the fingers) To lock the fist the little finger tightens into the palm, as in sanchin, squeeze the fingers together as you tighten.
Most practice with this fist is against air. I'd recommend striking a vinyl covered pad or bag (I use a leather pad on the makawara). You should notice if you strike with a vertical (or slightly canted to the vertical) fist you will principally impact the first two knuckles like a proper seiken strike. I'd also recommend not striking pad or makawara with any twist that takes this fist into a palm down orientation. The goal is to strengthen the fist and align the first two knuckles with the radius (Bill is that correct, the radius has the maximal cross-sectional area???) to avoid injury to the wrist (and not skin the knuckles).
Targets are as described by 2green...the rest is practice.
Oh, the same type of fist can be made with the thumb braced on the index finger like in Isshinryu and in many Chinese arts. I use this fist in a seiken and hiraken form. I can work the pads and strike the boards with more force-than with what is described above (I think the alignment is better (better body mechanics?)-I really don’t know. Using this type of hiraken- inna sequential strike for example, you can strike the face of the rotator cuff (say opponent's right arm) with the knuckles of the hiraken and retract the strike hitting the inside of the upper portion of the same arm with the thumb....the strike to the rotator cuff area “flinches” the arm in a slight retraction…..
The hiraken is a very versatile tool.....
Thank you, that is probably more than you wanted to know and more than I intended to say......
Ron
I would recommend forming the Hiraken by bracing the index and second and third fingers with your thumb. The first joint of the thumb generally falls between the first joints of the index and second finger with the "tips" of the index and second and third fingers locked on the thumb. You should have the flesh of the thumb contacting the finders above the cuticle of the fingernails. (If not a hard strike-been there- will rip the cuticles back into the fingers) To lock the fist the little finger tightens into the palm, as in sanchin, squeeze the fingers together as you tighten.
Most practice with this fist is against air. I'd recommend striking a vinyl covered pad or bag (I use a leather pad on the makawara). You should notice if you strike with a vertical (or slightly canted to the vertical) fist you will principally impact the first two knuckles like a proper seiken strike. I'd also recommend not striking pad or makawara with any twist that takes this fist into a palm down orientation. The goal is to strengthen the fist and align the first two knuckles with the radius (Bill is that correct, the radius has the maximal cross-sectional area???) to avoid injury to the wrist (and not skin the knuckles).
Targets are as described by 2green...the rest is practice.
Oh, the same type of fist can be made with the thumb braced on the index finger like in Isshinryu and in many Chinese arts. I use this fist in a seiken and hiraken form. I can work the pads and strike the boards with more force-than with what is described above (I think the alignment is better (better body mechanics?)-I really don’t know. Using this type of hiraken- inna sequential strike for example, you can strike the face of the rotator cuff (say opponent's right arm) with the knuckles of the hiraken and retract the strike hitting the inside of the upper portion of the same arm with the thumb....the strike to the rotator cuff area “flinches” the arm in a slight retraction…..
The hiraken is a very versatile tool.....
Thank you, that is probably more than you wanted to know and more than I intended to say......
Ron
“Dignitus, virtus et reverentia.”
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ron
My specialty is physiology, and not anatomy, so I can't help you on the relative cross sectional areas of the radius vs. the ulna. Personally my index knucle ends up over the line of the radius, and the middle one close to the space inbetwee the bones. It works...
To me the hiraken is all about poking places where the fist can't reach. Anatomically if you know what you are trying to get at, you will form the hand to fit the target.
I also see a squeeze from boshiken to hiraken as a way to apply the "yin" side of this technique. I see the hiraken and shoken as equally valuable for grabbing as for striking and poking. You're guaranteed to get a fistfull of flesh in the grab, and not likely to get a jersey fracture when the person attempts to pull away. And depending on what you are trying to grab, you can achieve certain responses that can help you accomplish your goal.
BTW, hira*ken translates literally as flat*fist.
- Bill
My specialty is physiology, and not anatomy, so I can't help you on the relative cross sectional areas of the radius vs. the ulna. Personally my index knucle ends up over the line of the radius, and the middle one close to the space inbetwee the bones. It works...
To me the hiraken is all about poking places where the fist can't reach. Anatomically if you know what you are trying to get at, you will form the hand to fit the target.
I also see a squeeze from boshiken to hiraken as a way to apply the "yin" side of this technique. I see the hiraken and shoken as equally valuable for grabbing as for striking and poking. You're guaranteed to get a fistfull of flesh in the grab, and not likely to get a jersey fracture when the person attempts to pull away. And depending on what you are trying to grab, you can achieve certain responses that can help you accomplish your goal.
BTW, hira*ken translates literally as flat*fist.
- Bill
WOW.
That was more than I anticipated. Thank you everyone, it makes a lot more sense for me now.
Since I have a rather long commute to work, I've been working on getting the hand position comfortable. I'll alternate hold that position for each hand for a minute or so and squeezing tight for 10 seconds at a time. After 3 days, it has really started to feel right.
-Walkman
That was more than I anticipated. Thank you everyone, it makes a lot more sense for me now.
Since I have a rather long commute to work, I've been working on getting the hand position comfortable. I'll alternate hold that position for each hand for a minute or so and squeezing tight for 10 seconds at a time. After 3 days, it has really started to feel right.
-Walkman
