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Postby RACastanet » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:47 pm

"It sounds now like its gotten over compicated...computerized. Anyway, at least something is started for those fit and not overweight."

I do not see any requirement that this test is for fit or not overweight persons. Anyone can do this test. It is simple, short and purely objective. This will provide anyone taking it a baseline of performance. From there improvement, if that is the goal, can be measured.

As far as computerized, I believe the data was gathered on index cards. Bill will use the data to establish some norms. Nothing complex at all. It could not be much simpler as all you need is a tree branch, the ground and a mile. I suspect Bill will come up with a chart or bell curve of some sort for future reference. If he has a sample including over 20 participants his results will be reliable.

When the Marines were trying a test like this out all data was on a yellow legal notebook in pencil. It had to be that way so the grunts out in the fleet could do it whenever and wherever they happened to be. This type of test was not adopted but the existing test is still run and scores are tabulated based on printed charts as posted earlier.

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Postby Bill Glasheen » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:14 pm

I agree, Rich.

David wrote:When I first proposed the "Red Sun" test, it was simple. Run, use heavy bag to punch, kick, sit ups, push ups, etc. all within a 30 minute time limit. A minimum had to established, say 500 or so punches and kicks, each arm and leg.

And here lies the problem, David. A punch from person A is not equal to a punch from peson B is not equal to a punch from person C. I still remember my early karate years where every punch that Hamada Sensei asked the class to do was my hardest and best effort. We worked out in the un-airconditioned basement of a W&M gym (1972-1974), and I'd be leaving pools of sweat beneath me. Meanwhile, the handful of people around me were slagging their way through everything. Halfway through the class I was dieing, and they were coasting and not breaking a sweat. That's when the shinai came out to make me go harder.

Fortunately Hamada Sensei knew... He still beat the &%$# out of me to get more because he knew I had it in me and I would. But I would never forget the disparity of efforts.

Thirty years later, it has paid off.

Meanwhile, such an assessment will not work.

The various tests we considered, David, were those presently used either by the military or various LEO outfits. These people can't operate in a fantasy world. Either you can do the work, or you die.

There's nothing complicated about the raw results. Push-ups are push-ups and pull-ups are pull-ups. You either get them up or you don't. A broad jump can't be faked, and is a gold standard measure of explosiveness. And if you slag the mile run, your time will reflect it. In every single category you have to move your own body weight - or not. When you punch or kick a bag, you can kill it, whack it, or love-tap it. There's no simple way to compare one person's effort (or lack thereof) to the next.

The additional analyses I am doing are designed to seek benchmarks (over time) and to combine the various categories for some type of total score. There's nothing complicated about the statistics I use. These are the same kinds of stats they use to score SATs, GREs, and any other standardized test. Over time I will be able to set standards that put individuals into elite fitness categories - something George wants. Meanwhile, everyone gets to benchmark their own performance, and will be motivated to improve over time. And there's nothing wrong with that.

This test isn't perfect, but it's simple, it's straightforward, and it's a path well worn. Over time we can probably measure other categories of human performance. But this is a great start.

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Good job Bill..

Postby gmattson » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:52 pm

And a good explanation why we selected the test we ran with. I've spoken to quite a few people who all agree that the test is perfect for the intended purpose. I believe it will catch on as well and hopefully will be implemented in some way with future black belt tests.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:23 am

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