Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:05 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 64 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17068
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You guys are good. These are exactly the kinds of questions I was hoping for.
Gene wrote:
Broad Jumping: I haven't grown taller since the last time you saw me. And my friend and dojo mate Rob Parsons (all 6 foot plus) certainly hasn't shrunk any either. Any type of weighing system for us from Lilliput, in comparison to our Gulliver brethren?

Good question, Gene. This is one of those "walk a mile in my shoes" issues.

I've had quite a few big men in my classes through the years. I once had two six-foot-seven guys in my class at the same time - one of whom played small center for a college team. I once had a former judoka and white crane practitioner who admitted to 325. His ukemi were so good, that it reminded me of a scene from Fantasia. Right now I have a couple of 220 pounders working their way through the ranks. All these guys were or are going to be fantastic fighters.

Now consider these guys looking at that chip-up bar. They've got to lug all that weight up and down a few times. If they can do that, Gene, they can probably pick you up and launch you across a room. Meanwhile, you and the little scramblers are probably going to burn through push-ups, chin-ups, and squats. You might even have a decent one-mile time. You don't have that much weight to move around. And at the end of the day, your good numbers mean you are very good at moving a smaller weight around.

The broad jump does several things. First... It gives fast-twitch-muscle assessment of the legs, as well as your ability to call on the dynamic stretch reflex. If you are a good broad jumper and you know how to do a proper Sanchin, you'll likely reflect this ability as explosiveness in your thrusts. It pays homage to the adage "Power comes from the ground up." And yes, you CAN work on this. By putting this in a fitness assessment, I and the folks who put together a similar test are putting everyone on the hook for doing plyometrics and other such drills in their training. Some Uechi folks are, by the way. ;) When I saw that exercise in Rich's experimental test, it made me smile. Gotta have it! 8)

The mile run on the other hand is more of an endurance and cardiorespiratory assessment. You can get better at this as well with work.

What you will find though (and I will assess the data to prove it) is that there will be a mild, negative correlation between ability on the broad jump and ability on the mile. All training aspects being equal (people having reached their potential), the folks with a higher proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers will be better broad jumpers, and the folks with a higher proportion of slow-twitch muscle fibers will be better milers. It's a fact of nature. You'll see genetic pockets of people that reflect extremes of these abilities (great milers in high-altitude East Africa, and great sprinter/jumpers in West Africa).

The broad jump also is a bit of an equalizer for size. Big guys - and we NEED big guys - will be better broad jumpers, but might find it more challenging to move those big bodies around in the other events. The smaller types will excel at other events. At the end of the day, your handicaps/advantages are a combination of the weight you carry (which you must push, pull, flex, or drag through all events), and your height/size.

Eyeballing it, I think giving every event equal weight gives us what we want - a test that rewards folks who reach their potential, and who have balanced fitness skills.

What I can and will do, Gene, is to take height and weight data, and maybe a "bone size" assessment. (Doing skin caliper assessments would be good too, but you need a trained person to do that.) I can then look at how variables such as height, weight and BMI affect your abilities to do well on the various events, and combination of events. That then can help me consider how to adjust and score the raw data.

But remember - your raw data are your raw data are your raw data. I can reconfigure the final score 10 different ways to Sunday, but the raw numbers never change. Pay attention to them, and use them as YOUR OWN PERSONAL fitness benchmarks. Tests such as these work best in such a manner.
Gene wrote:
And are sit-ups like you described safe long term? Just wondering....

Nothing you do in the gym is without risk. What we want to do here is to find the best, easiest, simplest, and safest way to assess your fitness level.

I don't have the picture of the sit-up right here. I believe it's in a PDF document, so I can't post it. But it's the vanilla way to do them these days. Any fool can stick their feet under something as I did as a kid, bend the knees, and do these sit-ups. It's pretty much a recognized standard.

How you TRAIN for the event is something different. Personally I wouldn't spend too much time doing just the test event. I'd get better personal results by varying how I train my trunk. I would (and do) use a variety of methods to get at upper and lower abdominals, obliques, lumbar muscles, hip flexors, etc. This makes me a better athlete and better able to do my Uechi as hard as I want to. And it will just happen also to make me do the standard sit-up better. If I knew I was going to do this test, I'd throw the exercise in once every few weeks or so, but I personally wouldn't obsess over it. I've got SO many exercises I do that use abdominals in combination with other muscle groups that give me the value I want.

I know one of my associate students over in Nebraska is going to be eager to take this test. He's one of David Lamb's students, and was on the Nebraska football team a few years ago. I know Kevin would see this as something he could do, and wouldn't think to change his training routine too terribly much just to do well only on this. He's a good athlete, worked to be that good athlete, and will do fine because of it.

That's the way it should work - in a perfect world.
Fred wrote:
Interesting choice having a lat exercise such as the pull up.
My least favorite exercise in the bunch.
I do lat pulldowns in the gym because I can't do enough of those pull-ups to feel I get anything out of them. One thing I do sometimes is have a helper lift the bottom of the feet to help out a little.

I think you train your lats fine, Fred. As I stated above, how you train and how you assess are probably going to be two different things.

I see lots of folks doing chin-ups/pull-ups in the gym. I don't do them, because I've got 3 or 4 other much better ways to train mine at various angles and with various levels of emphasis through the range. I've got all these machines that have variable, adjustable cams, and can dial in exactly the weight I want. I can isolate, and I can use the lats more naturally in conjunction with other muscles in ways that help me with my overall coordination.

And I can also do Sanchin, which helps me work on lats and other muscles via static tension, dynamic movement, etc.

The chin-up is the easy-to-do, wherever-you-are assessment tool. The weight you pull is your own. Bigger people have more weight to pull up, and ideally have muscle development to match.
Fred wrote:
Will the pushups be straight through without any breaks?

You've got one minute to do your max. That's not long... I will check in more detail how The Marines and The Army do this, and probably follow a similar methodology. However I insist that we do the elbow-rub-against-body style. There are many very good reasons why we want to do this, not the least of which is that it goes through the line of a Sanchin thrust. It also happens to be the way this experimental test did it, which further validates my approach. I think they did it this way partly because it produces a more-predictable result (lacking an ability to cheat) and because it also assesses deltoid (shoulder) function.
Fred wrote:
I am in favor of a regular palm pushup.

I'm struggling with this, Fred. My gut agrees with you. But here are some issues to consider.

* In spite of bad-mouthing, a punch is still an Okinawan Karate standard. It's a useful body blow technique.

* Doing a karate knuckle push-up is a really good way also to assess hand and wrist strength. Even if I never planned to use my fist, I still like how this exercise reflects my weak links. Ideally I'd like the two upper-body exercises to represent a balanced view of the upper body ability, and dig in at the weak links we may have. Thus those who are doing their extra work with jars, dojo toys, etc. might get a few extra knuckle push-ups over the fellow/lassie who avoid work they really should be doing.

* The problem with a karate knuckle push-up is cheating. In my view if you aren't on the front two knuckles, then none of your push-ups count - period. That might be a difficult standard to enforce. And the Wing Chun people might actually disagree with me here, as their punches are very different.

Comments folks? I really want to get this right the first time. Your opinions would be appreciated here.

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 2713
knuckles on soft dirt or padding are different from knuckes on hard floor.

If you're focused on testing the strength of the wrists and not "hardness" of the knuckles then you should do the knuckle pushups on a cushioned suface (dirt or padding.)

However you could also consider making this something you track in the first few rounds but not require. So you just put an asterix next to the folks that do the knuckle version and compare their outcomes to those who do flat hand to those who do a combination (if any do that.)

I don't think it would really contaminate the data to have flat hand and knuckles pushups as long as the elbows are in the same position.

_________________
Did you show compassion today?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17068
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Good point, Dana. And here we have a problem with standardizing how you do the test. That's an argument FOR the simpler (palm push-up) approach.

Personally I think we should do knuckle push-ups on broken glass in the snow - just like the way we do them in our dojo... :roll:
Dana wrote:
However you could also consider making this something you track in the first few rounds but not require. So you just put an asterix next to the folks that do the knuckle version and compare their outcomes to those who do flat hand to those who do a combination (if any do that.)

I like it! 8)

It wouldn't be a proper comparison, Dana, because you don't have a randomized or paired design. But you could give credit to those who want to put the bar higher for their own personal achievement.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3551
Location: Valhalla
The Okinawan standard that one can see in Alan Dollars book for the pushup is a 3 finger one. I know there's a photo of Nakahodo Sensei doing it.
Not for me, but perhaps some could do it!

F.

_________________
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17068
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Finger print? If so, I don't like it. Bad idea.

I have one I learned via David Lamb from an Okinawan that I really like. You make a tripod with the outer knuckles of your middle finger, index finger, and boshiken thumb. It's the closest thing to a "Uechi style" push-up that I've seen. I guarantee you that it'll make your hirakens, shokens, and boshikens better.

The finger print push-up is BS, unless your goal is to play guitar or bass better. People don't do that when they do martial arts.

A finger TIP boshiken push-up is a trip. I make my students try that now and then just to humble them. I can do a few...

- Bill

P.S. I have Dollar Sensei's book. Please give me the page. I'll look it up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Gene said: "Broad Jumping: I haven't grown taller since the last time you saw me. And my friend and dojo mate Rob Parsons (all 6 foot plus) certainly hasn't shrunk any either. Any type of weighing system for us from Lilliput, in comparison to our Gulliver brethren?
And are sit-ups like you described safe long term? Just wondering...."

Gene: The standing broad jump is the easiest of the events to make noticable gains in quickly. If you practice this a few times before camp you will be surprised how well you do. This is as much an effort of coordination as leg strength. I did not see much correlation between stature and ability to jump. Some Marines could literally fly and some looked like they were tied down.

As for the sit-ups, here is the Marine standard:

Abdominal Crunch. The goal of the abdominal crunch event is for a Marine to execute as many proper and complete crunches within the prescribed time limit. The procedures are:

(1) 2-minute time limit.

(2) On a flat surface, Marines will lie flat on their back with shoulder blades touching the deck, knees will be bent, and both feet will be flat on the deck.

(3) The arms will be folded across the chest or rib cage with no gap existing between the arms and chest/rib cage. Both arms must remain in constant contact with chest/rib cage throughout the exercise. A single repetition consists of raising the upper body from the starting position until both forearms or elbows simultaneously touch the thighs, and then returning to the starting position with the shoulder blades touching the deck.

(4) The buttocks will remain in constant contact with the deck throughout the event. No arching of the lower back or lifting the buttocks is permitted.

(5) An assistant may be used to hold a Marine's legs or feet, at or below the knees in whatever manner that is most comfortable for the Marine. Kneeling or sitting on the Marine’s feet is permitted.

(6) A repetition will be counted when an accurate and complete abdominal crunch is performed.


Dana said: "knuckles on soft dirt or padding are different from knuckes on hard floor." and Fred said: "Will the pushups be straight through without any breaks? I am in favor of a regular palm pushup."

I actually do both. On a softer surface I prefer the knuckle version. Occasionally I switch mid stream. No one has ever commented on my hand position but perhaps no one is actually watching my hand/fist. The first time I did the test was in February, out in a training area... the ground was frozen, sharp and hard. Also have done it in the rain and sleet and 90+ on baked and bare ground. The Marines train with what they get. All in all though I prefer a padded surface like at the gym.

Bill said: "What I can and will do, Gene, is to take height and weight data, and maybe a "bone size" assessment. (Doing skin caliper assessments would be good too, but you need a trained person to do that.) I can then look at how variables such as height, weight and BMI affect your abilities to do well on the various events, and combination of events. That then can help me consider how to adjust and score the raw data. "

Here is the USMC standard...

Height and Weight

Marine Corps Weight Chart

Males

Body Fat Standards for Marines are:

Male - Not to exceed 18 percent.

Females - Not to exceed 26 percent.

Note: If the Marine Scores a First Class on the Fitness Test, the body fat standards are:

Male - Not to exceed 22 percent

Females - Not to exceed 30 percent

If the Marine fails to lose the required weight/body fat while enrolled in the Body Composition Program, they can ultimately be discharged from the United States Marine Corps.

Marine Corps Weight Chart - Males
Height
(Inches) Maximum
Standard
(Pounds) Minimum
Standard
(Pounds)
58 132 91
59 136 94
60 141 97
61 146 100
62 150 104
63 155 107
64 160 110
65 165 114
66 170 117
67 176 121
68 181 125
69 186 128
70 192 132
71 197 136
72 203 140
73 208 144
74 214 148
75 220 152
76 226 156
77 232 160
78 238 164
79 244 168
80 250 173


For instance, at 73", my max allowable weight is 208 and the minimum is 144 pounds. At 208 I definitely look doughy so try to stay around 200 pounds.

Anyone want to see the chart for females?

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:30 am
Posts: 82
Location: Nebraska
Bill thanks for the complements! Hope that I can live up to them at camp. I am looking forward to the test!!!

I agree that with proper core training the ability to do the "Standard sit-ups" should be no problem. Personally I think that a variety in your core training is ideal.

I do not have research currently to back up this comment but it is something just to consider. During conditioning at Nebraska we were not allowed to lift legs until after completing running due to risk of injury according to the strength coaches. This may only be with explosive anerobic running as aposed to the mile run. Just wondered what your thoughts would be on performing the squats prior to the mile run.

Also will the pull ups be overhand/reverse, wide/narrow grips. I would assume shoulder width would apply more to uechi. I only ask this because it makes a difference in the muscle groups used and for most people the number possible.

Thanks-Kevin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
"Also will the pull ups be overhand/reverse, wide/narrow grips."

The Marines allow either hand position with arms roughly shoulder width apart. Bill can set the standard as he wishes though.

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17068
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
To All

Keep it coming. Consider this a time to comment on the standards before they are put into stone. For the most part, I'm going to stick with the well-worn paths such as the USMC pull-up standard Rich cited above.
Quote:
a. Pullups/Chinups. The participant may be assisted to the
bar by a step up, by being lifted, or by jumping. The force of
the jump will not be used to continue on into to the first pullup/
chinup. The bar is grasped with both palms facing either forward
or to the rear, the arms are fully extended, and the feet are
free of the ground. One repetition consists of raising the body
with the arms until the chin is above the bar and lowering it
until the arms are fully extended again. Repeat as many times as
possible. Kicking motions such that the feet and/or knees do not
raise above the waist level are permitted as long as the pullup
remains a vertical movement. The body will be kept from swinging
by an assistant holding an extended arm across the front of the
knees of the Marine on the bar. Hand position may be changed
during the exercise providing the individual does not dismount
the bar or receive assistance from another party. Resting is
permitted in the up or down position but resting with the chin
supported by the bar is prohibited.

I like that.

Now that I have peoples' attention, what I guess I'll do is break this up into six threads for commentary. I'll propose the standard, and people can comment. Already I have some good ideas....
Kevin wrote:
During conditioning at Nebraska we were not allowed to lift legs until after completing running due to risk of injury according to the strength coaches. This may only be with explosive anerobic running as aposed to the mile run. Just wondered what your thoughts would be on performing the squats prior to the mile run.

What I THINK you mean, Kevin, is that folks were not allowed to lift WEIGHTS until after completing running. If that is what you mean...

In general, you should not do other activities until at least 2 hours after you have done weight training. The muscles are experiencing "the pump" (reactive hyperemia) and so don't have the same viscoelastic properties. They are also very fatigued - if you've worked out hard enough.

This is a bit different.

To start, this is a no-load squat. You have no weight on your shoulder. It's essentially a callisthenic exercise.

Second, this is the middle of your "workout" so to speak. What you essentially are doing is pre-exhausting one set of muscles before doing a multiple muscle group exercise.

You've done stuff like that in the weight room before, right? It's like doing flies, and then immediately doing a bench press set. It's a killer. Nautilus used to have these paired machines to accomplish that. A pec deck and a "bench" machine were combined. A lateral raise and an overhead press machine were combined. A leg extension and a leg press were combined. A lat isolation and a lat pull-down machine were combined.

But... This is a no-load exercise. You are squatting only with your body weight, and you follow that with a distance run. And yes, this isn't a sprint. At least I don't sprint the 1-mile run... 8O

It's been done before, so I have a precedent to try it. I believe it will work out well. What I particularly like about the combination is this, Kevin. Because the no-load squats will exhaust your quads and to a lesser extent your glutes, you'll be forced to use other muscles a bit more on the subsequent run. This way we get to tax your hamstrings and calves maybe a bit more than we might normally, as well as the hip flexor muscles that lift your knees. When you combine the two exercises, the whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts. It's a really good test of lower-body fitness.

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 2141
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
I assume you are not going to want to just measure how many reps a person is doing, but also have some way to include that each rep done is an adequate rep. It's been my experience that when these exercises are timed to see how many you can do in X minutes, the participants rarely use the full range of motion that they would if they were doing it slowly. And in general the faster the speed, the lower the quality. So for example you might end up with someone doing 100 push-ups a minute but he only moved his body 2 inches up and down with each rep.

Therefore what counts as a single push-up (etc) will need to be defined in advance, but even with that there will be issues with actually determining if someone is doing the full exercise of not.

_________________
Glenn


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17068
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Note the pull-up standard. It's pretty specific, Glenn. Arms fully extended in the down position, and chin above the bar in the up position.

You can do all the 2-inch push-ups you want. But the person scoring you won't count any of them.

We'll get that standard down. Your point is very well taken.

By the way, doing max in a minute does indeed bring speed of contraction into it - if you are in good shape and can do a lot. Thus for exercises like sit-ups and push-ups for the big dogs, we'll be checking out both your speed and your endurance. And there will always be some monkey out there who will fire off 30 or 40 chin-ups. Rich has seen more than a few in the USMC. Glad they are on my side... 8O

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:30 am
Posts: 82
Location: Nebraska
-
Bill Glasheen wrote:
To All


What I THINK you mean, Kevin, is that folks were not allowed to lift WEIGHTS until after completing running. If that is what you mean...



You are right on. We definitely lifted weights on legs after completing running for the day. Sorry I may not have explained myself very well.

Your explanation of the workout is very helpful and I had a feeling that is what you would say. Thank you for the info. I agree that it will be a great workout to say the least and I know everyone that pushes themselves out of the "comfort zone" will feel the BURN. :wink:

Also, don't worry I won't be sprinting the mile either.

Thanks-Kevin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:56 pm
Posts: 194
Location: Portsmouth, NH
Some other ideas of standards.....

Here is the US Marshal Service's fitness standards. These standards are very similar to other federal law enforcement agencies and what is used at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center).

http://www.usmarshals.gov/careers/fitness.htm

_________________
Shugyo Training Camp
www.atlantickarate.com


Last edited by AE Moores on Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17068
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Andrew

Good to see you here. You and your buddies are in mind when I think about folks who would do well with the myriad tests. ;)

Did you forget to provide the link? This would be very helpful.

Thanks.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:56 pm
Posts: 194
Location: Portsmouth, NH
Link added to message above.

_________________
Shugyo Training Camp
www.atlantickarate.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 64 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group