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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:35 pm 
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Thank you so much, Andrew!!

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:51 pm 
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And yes Rich,

I would like to see the weight requirements for women. But they have a minimum height requirement, yes?

thanks,
Dana

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:28 pm 
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Here it is:

Marine Corps Weight Chart - Females
Height
(Inches) Maximum
Standard
(Pounds) Minimum
Standard
(Pounds)
58 120 91
59 124 94
60 128 97
61 132 100
62 137 104
63 141 107
64 146 110
65 150 114
66 155 117
67 160 121
68 164 125
69 169 128
70 174 132
71 179 136
72 184 140
73 189 144
74 195 148
75 200 152
76 205 156
77 211 160
78 216 164
79 222 168
80 228 173


The females do not do pullups but the flexed arm hang. This is not part of Bill's test but give it a try. Here are the test standards for females:

Flexed-Arm Hang. The goal of the flexed-arm hang event is for a Marine to hang (maintain elbow flexion) for as long as possible. The procedures are:

1) This is a timed event.

(2) Sweatshirts will be removed during the conduct of the flexed-arm hang event in order to observe when the Marine has completely locked-out her elbows.

(3) Assistance to the bar with a step up, being lifted up, or jumping up to the start position is authorized.

(4) The bar must be grasped with both palms facing either forward or to the rear.

(5) The correct starting position begins when the Marine’s arms are flexed at the elbow, the chin is held above the bar and not touching it, and the body is motionless. At no time during the execution of this event can a Marine rest her chin on the bar.

(6) Marines are authorized to drop down below the bar, however, some degree of elbow flexion must be maintained with both arms. Once a Marine's arms are fully extended or the Marine drops off the bar, the clock will stop.


The full test scoring table:

Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Points - Female
Points Flexed-Arm Hang Crunches 3-Mile Run
100 70 sec 100 21:00
99 99 21:10
98 69 sec 98 21:20
97 97 21:30
96 68 sec 96 21:40
95 95 21:50
94 67 sec 94 22:00
93 93 22:10
92 66 sec 92 22:20
91 91 22:30
90 65 sec 90 22:40
89 89 22:50
88 64 sec 88 23:00
87 87 23:10
86 63 sec 86 23:20
85 85 23:30
84 62 sec 84 23:40
83 83 23:50
82 61 sec 82 24:00
81 81 24:10
80 60 sec 80 24:20
79 79 24:30
78 59 sec 78 24:40
77 77 24:50
76 58 sec 76 25:00
75 75 25:10
74 57 sec 74 25:20
73 73 25:30
72 56 sec 72 25:40
71 71 25:50
70 55 sec 70 26:00
69 69 26:10
68 54 sec 68 26:20
67 67 26:30
66 53 sec 66 26:40
65 65 26: 50
64 52 sec 64 27:00
63 63 27:10
62 51 sec 62 27:20
61 61 27:30
60 50 sec 60 27:40
59 59 27:50
58 49 sec 58 28:00
57 57 28:10
56 48 sec 56 28:20
55 55 28:30
54 47 sec 54 28:40
53 53 28:50
52 46 sec 52 29:00
51 51 29:10
50 45 sec 50 29:20
49 49 29:30
48 44 sec 48 29:40
47 47 29:50
46 43 sec 46 30:00
45 45 30:10
44 42 sec 44 30:20
43 43 30:30
42 41 sec 42 30:40
41 41 30:50
40 40 sec 40 31:00
39 39 sec x 31:10
38 38 sec x 31:20
37 37 sec x 31:30
36 36 sec x 31:40
35 35 sec x 31:50
34 34 sec x 32:00
33 33 sec x 32:10
32 32 sec x 32:20
31 31 sec x 32:30
30 30 sec x 32:40
29 29 sec x 32:50
28 28 sec x 33:00
27 27 sec x 33:10
26 26 sec x 33:20
25 25 sec x 33:30
24 24 sec x 33:40
23 23 sec x 33:50
22 22 sec x 34:00
21 21 sec x 34:10
20 20 sec x 34:20
19 19 sec x 34:30
18 18 sec x 34:40
17 17 sec x 34:50
16 16 sec x 35:00
15 15 sec x 35:10
14 x x 35:20
13 x x 35:30
12 x x 35:40
11 x x 35:50
10 x x 36:00
9 x x x
8 x x x
7 x x x
6 x x x
5 x x x
4 x x x
3 x x x
2 x x x
1 x x x

*Round up all values (e.g., 21:01 to 21:09 equals 99 points)
In order to pass the semi-annual fitness test, Marines must perform the minimum acceptable performance requirements shown in the chart below for their age-group. Additionally, they must have enough overall points to meet the 3rd class fitness requirements (see below).

Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Females
Age Flexed-Arm Hang Crunches 3-Mile Run
17-26 15 Seconds 50 31:00
27-39 15 Seconds 45 32:00
40-45 15 Seconds 45 33:00
46+ 15 Seconds 40 36:00
Marine Corps PFT Classification Scores - Male and Female
Class Age 17-26 Age 27-39 Age 40-45 Age 46+
1st 225 200 175 150
2nd 175 150 125 100
3rd 135 110 88 65


Rich

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:44 pm 
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63 141 107

So I fit into that window no problem (usually I'm 125-132) but I have no idea about the bent arm hang. I haven't done that since freshman year of high school. I doubt I'll do more than 15 seconds.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:12 pm 
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Dana

What is your opinion? Should I have women do the pull-ups (and accept that some will have zero as that part of the test) or should I put them through an alternate flexed-arm hang test? Remember that for the Marines, they only have 3 parts of the test (pull-ups/armhangs, sit-ups, 3-mile-run). For this test, the pull-up and/or arm hang would be 1/6 rather than 1/3 of the total score.

Maybe I'm hanging around an unusual crowd but... It seems to me that there are enough women who can do at least a few pull-ups.
Dana wrote:
I have no idea about the bent arm hang. I haven't done that since freshman year of high school. I doubt I'll do more than 15 seconds.

Seems to me that this would be much easier for a Uechika with years of practicing unmovable arm. I'm almost thinking this would be too easy, and too many would be able to do a full minute.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:49 pm 
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I think Bill needs to post a video of him doing all these so we can see exactly what to train for. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:53 pm 
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Get in line, buddy. I'm being bugged about my Sanchin once a month... :P

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:02 pm 
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I'll go to the gym tomorrow and have someone time me. So we'll see if being able to do 3 chin-ups from a bent arm start translates into any kind of endurance.

I think the bent arm hang is a better test because women who might to be able to do a single pull up may be able to hold their arms bent for 1 or 2 seconds.

And yes Bill - you hang out at a gym or hang out with karate people - so you're likely hanging out with more people who can do pull ups. They not actually something I train to do. I just do some every now and then to see what happens.

Actually looking at the order again - since the pull ups follow the push ups that makes even more reason to do the hang because of the higher fatique factor. In the bent arm test you can have partials (seconds) to measure. In measuring pull ups it is either success or failure at one.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:32 pm 
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Dana wrote:
Actually looking at the order again - since the pull ups follow the push ups that makes even more reason to do the hang because of the higher fatique factor.

I would disagree here, Dana.

The push-up and the chin-up use two entirely different sets of muscles. It's really pure yin and yang.

Way back in 1983, I used to weight train with a woman (Kathryn Ballenger). To get through her workouts quickly, this pint-sized pocket rocket (five foot three) used to alternate agonist and antagonist exercises. She'd do bench, then seated rows, then bench, then seated rows... I picked that technique up from her. You really CAN do it. I pair the following exercises.

* Bench and seated rows.

* Overhead press and lat pulldowns.

* Leg extensions and leg curls.

* Front dumbbell raises and pullovers.

* Triceps extension and biceps curl

* Wrist flexion and wrist extension.

* Calf raises and ankle pulls

* Etc.

If "fatigue" means your beating heart and overtaxed lungs can't take it, well... GOOD. The test is showing us what we want it to show - the cardiorespiratory fitness could use some serious work. Otherwise, this format works really well.

Try it!

The only real killer is the pairing of the squats with the run. That acts a lot like a "pre-exhaustion" sequence.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:48 pm 
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Dana wrote:
And yes Bill - you hang out at a gym or hang out with karate people - so you're likely hanging out with more people who can do pull ups.

That's true.

But do we want to lower our standards to what an "average woman" can do, or do we raise the bar and test Uechi women for what their potentials might be? Not that I'm poking at some egos but... :wink:

I'll check with my spouse and a few women in the gym this weekend and see what they can do.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:26 am 
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Your spouse is no one to compare with...she used to be a professional body builder and has much much less than average body fat.

And are you really saying there is zero cross over between the arm muscles in push-ups and pull-ups?

Egos aside if the US Marine corps thinks that a bent arm hang is a more accurate measure of a woman's upper body strengh then I'll defer to their experience on this as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:15 am 
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The whole idea behind this drill was to eliminate gender and age from the equation. If a female or 50 something male could not do a pullup so be it. Perhaps they would still excell overall. Or, when the baselines were developed there might have been ranges developed based on age and gender.

Here is the Marine curve for age:

Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males
Age Pull-Ups Crunches 3-Mile Run
17-26 3 50 28:00
27-39 3 45 29:00
40-45 3 45 30:00
46+ 3 40 33:00
Marine Corps PFT Classification Scores - Male and Female
Class Age 17-26 Age 27-39 Age 40-45 Age 46+
1st 225 200 175 150
2nd 175 150 125 100
3rd 135 110 88 65


If I was 17-26 my typical score today would be considered 3rd class... I'd exceed minimums but would be in the botton third. However, at 52, my scores of 155 - 165 would rate me as first class! If you are a colonel hoping to be a general, you had better be first class.

Since I can do over 65 crunches in 2 minutes I have the minimum score of 65 points to pass. However there is also a minimum number of pullups, 3, and a max three mile run time of 33 minutes. With 3 pullups and a sub 33 minute run added to my 65 crunches I am easily in the 2nd class range. Perhaps Bill will find similar break points for age when he digests the data.
The experiment with the 6 event drill never got as far as scaling for age or gender so we can only guess at the curve.

Also, to get into the MCMAP instructor course you need to be first class. I can make the cut at 52 with 155 points but am in no way in the same physical class as a twenty something Marine who scores 300!

A number people will have trouble with one event or another. To come up with a PT plan that has no challenges would water it down too much. Indeed, the one original event Bill left out would leave many folks puking before they got half way through!

So, go for it. It will all be over in about 20 minutes! :wink:

Rich

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:17 am 
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Yes, Dana, I AM saying that push-ups and pull-ups require very few of the same muscles. I've alternated between bench and lat pull-downs a lot, with little compromise of one exercise from the other. Again, the only thing that limits you is cardiorespiratory fitness, and it is one of the reasons why I compress a workout like that. This way I get two birds with one effort (strength AND aerobic fitness). This sort of is what this whole test is about.

A few clarifications and comments here...

My wife was an amateur - not professional - bodybuilder, and she competed in the 1980s before women started using anabolic steroids and growth hormone. She got tired of meeting women backstage with deep voices, stubble on their chins, and square jaws. She managed to win a roomful of trophies before she retired. Most bodybuidling women these days are pharmaceutical freaks with implants. The non-drug-users have gravitated towards "figure" and "fitness" contests, which seem to get a lot of ex-cheerleaders and gymnasts.

Today in her mid-40s, she still has some swagger. She thought pull-ups were no big deal. But she is whom she is...

I did however talk with one of the AFFC trainers last night when he was spotting me. He said he's only met perhaps 5 women in his trainer days who could do pull-ups in our gym. (I guess my wife would be one of those five.) He agreed it would be a bit much for most.

I think I have a solution to the pull-up issue. What I'll ask is for everyone to try the pull-ups. If someone can't do one, then they will be permitted instead to do a flexed-arm hang. I'll make a full minute flexed-arm hang equal to one pull-up, and a fraction of a minute to be a fraction of the value of a single pull-up. That way everyone gets SOME credit that will be proportional to what they can do with this classic flexion motion. Those who can do one or more full pull-ups will get credit for being able to do them.

Make sense?

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:52 am 
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Acutally Bill I'd say there is some tricep cross over between the two on the extension for the pull up but that's based on what I feel. I have to drop slowly from a pull up because I'm not sure I've got the strength to "catch" myself in a plyometric way at the bottom and I dont' want to hurt my elbows. Again I'm an expert, just sharing my (limited upper body strength) experiences.

Remember the character Vasquez (the petite and tough as nails latina played by Jenette Goldstein) in "Aliens"? In the opening scene she does a number of pull ups (grip facing out) in front of and behind the bar while talking to another marine who is also doing pull ups. 8O She knew that scene was coming and trained with a personal trainer for hours a day for months in order to be able to pull off 10 pull ups on camera because she wanted to do them unassisted..

Image

On the hanging arm thing-
60 seconds of flex arm hang = 1 pull up does not make sense. Please enlighten me. That seems like comparing apples and oranges. Is this a standard you found someplace else?

Ealier you said:
Quote:
If you finish the test, you get credit. But remember - finishing means you have to do all the parts (including at least one pull-up) and do the run


Which is what started this discussion. However on the other thread you said:

Quote:
I'd like also for people who can't do pull-ups very well (if at all) to do the same. Again, each event only counts 1/6 of the total.


So which is it? Can you still score someone if they get a zero on an event?

Also when you present this test at camp you might want to remember to introduce this in a non-threatening and very fun way. Otherwise many folks with lower fitness levels won't even show up and the only people who will take the test are people who are way above average...even for karate-ka.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:42 pm 
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Nakahodo does pushups on page 163. Index finger and thumb tips.

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