Non-Uechi Seisan

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:17 am

Non-Uechi Seisan

I can’t find the thread now but there was some discussion of other style’s Seisan, so here is a clip:

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogsp0Z1oyeo&search=kata

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:13 am

Man I loved that , thanks Rick , good example of hard karate

how about hangetsu

http://leland.break.net/shotokan/hangetsu-2.wmv

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:41 am

I like the hip rotation used in seisan.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:20 pm

Dana if you see more in a kata than I do, then Raffi's going to start checking if you're taking your meds. Laughing But seriously... We should chat. I'd love to see what you see.

So after he turns he does 4 splitting hands motions that finish with the upward hand in a wa-uke position/hirate kamae. The lower hand doesn't pass behind the body - but this is easily the same pattern as the 4 furi-nukite/wa-uke movements in the Uechi Seisan.

The rest of the kata (if you ignore most of the side, downward thrusting kicks) involves turning to the rear, turning to one side with a dropped center stance, turning to another side and doing a fast hand combination, revisiting the rear direction and then turning to the front.

Three double handed nukites from the start of the goju version are at the end of the uechi version and all to the front.

Both forms end with a series of dramatic high to low stance shifts.

So both kata use four directions, the quick tiger strikes, the dividing/circling strike plus "block", lowered center elbows, nukite in a series of three, and a dramatic series of high to low stance shifts at the end.

I am NOT saying that Uechi Seisan is some kind of derivative of the Goju Seisan nor am I saying the converse of that. I am saying that it seems pretty clear to me that both of those forms were put together around the same time, with some similar influences, and similar base knowledge.

The Goju version feels more Okinawan karate to me in large part because of those thrusting side kicks and the closed fisted punches. So that means to me that the lineage of that form was on Okinawa longer than the Uechi version.

However they remain, to me, very similar.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:53 pm

Here's the one that I learned.

Found a video of it here

I do see some very common themes in the various seisans.[/url]

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:34 pm

I love the way he explodes into each technique in the Goju Seisan video. Very little telegraphing, good economy of movement...one minute he is still, the next second the technique is complete...glare in the eye with fast hands.

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:09 pm

It was really......thick.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:30 am

Dana wrote:
So after he turns he does 4 splitting hands motions that finish with the upward hand in a wa-uke position/hirate kamae. The lower hand doesn't pass behind the body - but this is easily the same pattern as the 4 furi-nukite/wa-uke movements in the Uechi Seisan.

If you want to say that the patterns have the same cadence, then I hear you. If you want to say the moves have the same meaning or the same mechanics, then I say absolutely not. I've done both.

The Goju moves are exactly like those I did in my Teisha series from Nippon Shorin Ken. They aren't at all like the Uechi moves mechanically, and can't at all be interpreted the same way.

A closer Uechi Ryu match would be a combination of the high/low movement in Seichin after doing the eye strikes and the wrist turnover thing done in the beginning of Seichin before the first turn. But then these are bridge kata movements. Interesting...

But those are nice movements, and this fellow does them with great precision and dynamic range.

Dana wrote:
The rest of the kata (if you ignore most of the side, downward thrusting kicks) involves turning to the rear, turning to one side with a dropped center stance, turning to another side and doing a fast hand combination, revisiting the rear direction and then turning to the front.

Kata pattern? Sort of kind of maybe. Kata mechanics and meaning? Not at all except maybe the three punches done from a deeper stance.

The Fuzhou Suparinpei is a much, much better match with its four shokens done at a downwards angle following a double knee strike.

But the beginning? Yea, the beginnings of Goju and Uechi Seisan are very much alike both in mechanics and meaning. You can't quite get the details here with the fuzzy film. But I know what he is doing, and it is quite nice.

Why don't Uechi Ryu instructors teach their students to do their kata with such dynamic range? I blame the "group instruction" classes. IMO doing the katas by rote in group sessions kills a lot of kata learning. And this isn't the way kata used to be taught by Kanbun and his immediate predecessors. But that's another story altogether.

Definitely a "10" kata here.

- Bill

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:54 am

"Why don't Uechi Ryu instructors teach their students to do their kata with such dynamic range? I blame the "group instruction" classes. IMO doing the katas by rote in group sessions kills a lot of kata learning. And this isn't the way kata used to be taught by Kanbun and his immediate predecessors. But that's another story altogether."

Well said, Bill.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:06 am

I`ll just say I agree with Dana in the similarity department ...

I think it`s finger and moon stuff , but just MHO , they are of course very different , but the themes seem very common in a lot of context .

The Fuzhou Suparinpei is a much, much better match with its four shokens done at a downwards angle following a double knee strike.

can you substantiate it by providing the form for veiwing ?

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:36 pm

Step back and squint a little - try pretending you're looking at an impressionistic painting instead of a still life.

The two versions of the splitting hands with upward palm turning over simply aren't that far apart. Especially when Mr. Tomoyose has stated several times that the upward moving hand only stopped in the striking position once folks started doing group kata to counts. Before that the upward moving hand was always supposed to just continue doing the circle, as it does in the Goju version.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:43 pm

http://www.ryukyukempo.com/kata_tomari_seisan.html

This version has the same dividing hands, upward hand finishing in what we call "hirate kamae". I've seen it performed by students of Taiko and they hit and then circle or sometimes just circle.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:02 pm

Keep talking, Dana. I like the way you think.

Ben I can probably convince Jim in my class to film a short comparison clip that gets the point across about the knees and downwards shokens. There are some striking parallels between Uechi Seisan and Fuzhou Suparinpei, and there is actually a progression of complexity as well. And considering the two sets of choreography together (rather than one as gospel and the other copycat) makes you step back and start thinking about broader ideas and applications. This then makes it easier for me to see the same base movements in the kobudo kata I teach.

I'll post something...

- Bill

cdoucet · Post by **cdoucet** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:13 pm

Rick,

Is this the link your referring to?

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/ ... art/3/vc/1

Chris

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:53 pm

http://www.shitokai.com/movies/seisan.php

Yet another.

This time the opening ridge hand strike happens low instead of high and the following strikes are more circular on a flat plane in front of the karate-ka instead of the elliptical plane forward as in Uechi Seisan The dividing strikes to the rear are still there.

And look again at the turn to the viewer's left. Three rapid fire strikes that follow an entry of two hands pressing downwards. Looks like a very similar way of dealing with somone shooting for a sprawl to me.