"Self defense is a basic right"

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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

The great object is, that every man be armed. But can the people afford to pay for double sets of arms, &c.? Every one Who is able may have a gun. But we have learned, by experience, that, necessary as it is to have arms, and though our Assembly has, by a succession of laws for many years, endeavored to have the militia completely armed, it is still far from being the case.
Speech of Patrick Henry, June 14, 1788, Virginia's Debates on The United States Constitution

"Arms" would seem to equate to "guns" in this speech that occurred during Virginia's convention to ratify the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Last edited by Glenn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van Canna wrote:
What defined 'arms' in the old days?
I've been pondering that a bit myself.
arm (ärm)
n.
1. A weapon, especially a firearm
It doesn't explicitly exclude non-firearm weapons, does it?

- Bill
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Van Canna wrote:
What defined 'arms' in the old days?
I've been pondering that a bit myself.
arm (ärm)
n.
1. A weapon, especially a firearm
It doesn't explicitly exclude non-firearm weapons, does it?

- Bill
Has this point ever been argued?

And does the bill of rights also give a criminal the right to be armed ?
Van
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van Canna wrote:
And does the bill of rights also give a criminal the right to be armed ?
Today we declare that criminals - especially convicted felons - are lacking the rights of "normal" citizens.

How that all works out is beyond my knowledge.

From Wikipedia
United States

In many parts of the United States, a convicted felon can face long-term legal consequences persisting after the end of their imprisonment, including:
  • Loss of voting rights (which the Supreme Court interpreted to be permitted by the Fourteenth Amendment)
  • Exclusion from obtaining certain licences, such as a visa.
  • Exclusion from purchase and possession of firearms, ammunition and body armor
  • Ineligibility for public office
  • Ineligibility for serving on a jury
  • Deportation (if the criminal is not a citizen)
Some states also consider a felony conviction to be grounds for an uncontested divorce.

The status and designation as a "convicted felon" is considered permanent, and is not extinguished upon sentence completion even if parole, probation or early release was given.[citation needed] The status can only be cleared by a successful appeal or executive clemency. However, felons may be able to apply for restoration of some rights after a certain period of time has passed.
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

From the British Army "Manual of Arms" of 1764
The Position of a Soldier under Arms.
To stand streight and firm upon his Legs; Head turned to the Right: Heels close: Toes a little turned out; the Belly drawn in a little, but without constraint; the Breast a little projected ; Shoulders square to the Front, and kept back; the right Hand hanging streight down the Side, with the Palm close to the Thigh; the left Elbow not to be turned out from the Body; the Firelock to be carried on the left Shoulder, as low down as can be admitted without Constraint; the three last Fingers under the Butt; the Fore-Finger and Thumb before the Swell; the Flat of the Butt to be supported against the Hip-Bone, and to be pressed so that the Firelock may be felt against the left Side, and that it may stand before the Hollow of the Shoulder, not leaning towards the Head nor from it; the Barrel almost perpendicular
Etc.

Here again "arms" seems to be equated with firearms, and I would assume the colonies/new nation would follow suit with this British military use of the term, many revolutionary leaders having served in the British military.
Last edited by Glenn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Van Canna wrote:
And does the bill of rights also give a criminal the right to be armed ?
Today we declare that criminals - especially convicted felons - are lacking the rights of "normal" citizens.

How that all works out is beyond my knowledge.

- Bill
Interesting...so a convicted felon would have no right to self defense with an 'arm' ?

Would he have that right to defend himself with a baseball bat...kitchen knife or 'Karrattaee' :wink:
Van
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Van
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van Canna wrote:
Would he have that right to defend himself with a baseball bat...kitchen knife or 'Karrattaee' :wink:
Indeed he would!

- Bill
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Post by Van Canna »

Just as the First Amendment applies to the modern printing press and the Internet, the Second Amendment applies to modern firearms.

The most important aspect of the Second Amendment is the philosophy on which it is founded: that all free people have the right to defend themselves, their families, communities and nation. In 1789 it applied to the freedom to keep and bear arms just as it does today.

The technological advances of the past two centuries do not make that principle obsolete, any more than computerized printing cancels the First Amendment.
Van
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

13. Shouldn`t we at least ban handguns?

The important truth is: criminals do not want to attack armed citizens. The only real impact of a handgun ban is to insure that law-abiding citizens are disarmed, leaving them more at the mercy of illegally armed criminals. Cities such as Washington D.C. and Chicago have banned handguns, and violent crime has not been eliminated, or even reduced.
Van
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Post by Van Canna »

14. Who can buy a firearm? Can just anyone own a gun?

Federal law says that certain people cannot buy or possess any firearm. This includes convicted felons, fugitives from the law and people found mentally incompetent by a court.

A licensed dealer may not sell handguns to people under the age of 21 or long guns to people under the age of 18.

In addition, under federal law, a person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun ammunition, and it is illegal for a person to provide a handgun or handgun ammunition to a person under age 18, except for target shooting, hunting, or certain other exempted purposes. Additional restrictions are also imposed by individual states and localities.
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Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

I find the Supreme Court dissenting statement about the misrepresentation of history interesting in light of Patrick Henry's complaint that the goal of having every man armed who is able was not being met partly due to not everyone being able to afford a firearm. That would seem to indicate that they thought it fundamental.

Now an argument could be made over whether making sure there is an armed militia to protect the new nation, as Patrick Henry discusses, guarantees the right to use arms for personal self defense, but I don't think they separated those concepts back then like we do now. Heck their arms were used in duels, that went beyond simple personal self defense!
Last edited by Glenn on Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Van Canna »

19. Why does anyone need an "assault weapon"?

This question is often used to justify laws restricting firearms ownership. So-called "assault weapons" are just one example.

Why does anyone need a handgun? Why does anyone need a semi-auto shotgun?

The real question we ask is, "Why does government need to restrict this right for law-abiding citizens?" In a free society the government has to prove it needs to restrict the basic rights of the people. The government that can restrict a right based on "need" can restrict any right. That is not a free society.

Banning guns because some criminals use them tells all honest citizens that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct but on the behavior of the lawless. It tells the law-abiding that they have only such rights and liberties as criminals will allow.
Van
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Definitions of arms on the Web:

weaponry: weapons considered collectively
I doubt the founding Fathers were not smart enough to know this.

But why license to carry only apply to firearms [handguns]

Don't try carrying a loaded rifle in your car.
Van
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