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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:11 am 
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Over the years I've used a variety of warm-up exercises, from the traditional junbi-undo, to less traditional sport like stretches and exercises.

Through my research and education, I've been exposed to many views on what stretches are good, what is harmful, etc. One thing's for sure, there are a lot of differences of opinion.

Soo............ I was curious.

As Instructors how many of you stick with the traditional exercises? How many do a blend of traditional and other stretches and warm-ups? And how many have abandoned the traditional junbi-undo for more "modern" stretches and exercises?

I'm concerned / curious about things like: Are straight leg stretches bad for the Back, Sciatic nerve, etc.? Are ballistic stretches such as "straight leg kicking" ok to do after you are stretched / warmed up? Are some stretches ok for adults and not kids?

What are some of your thoughts?

Thanks.

Bert

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:37 am 
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Bert.

I don't know if I can offer anything, for 35years or so I never have used a separate warm up period ,quite simply I have always warmed up with Sanchin and give or take cooled down with Sanchin ,in a nutshell that's a old original way of warm up ,now don't think in a three full kata Sanchin format ,but more in terms of parts of Sanchin .

Its safe its economical it prepares you for extension.

You get into shape with Sanchin .

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:11 am 
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What's wrong with the junbi undo as a warm up? I've viewed a lot of joint mobility tapes and most that are out there are no better than junbi undo. Many of the so called experts on joint mobility have high priced dvds with a lot of fluff explaination and slow motion but they have nothing to offer those of us who do uechi. As far as specifics like the straight leg question, I think gradual and controlled junbi undo is as good or better than anything else. It doesn't have to be done a mile a minute and can help prevent and rehabilitate a lot of problems. Starting at on end of the body (heal pivot) and working gradually up to the top (neck) and finishing with an overall stretch (deep breathing) not only works but coincides with good science and physiology. I have had hip replacement and have a pretty fair amount of arthritis and rehabed a lot of my problems with these 10 exercises. My thought is do't underestimate these if you want to stay healthy, do them carefully and gradually and they will serve you well.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:29 pm 
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The knee circles I have issue with, better ways to warm up the knees. With the resources we now have access to, I`m certain Kanie would have given his blessing (remember the Junbi undo were basically modified exercises once used in the Japanese school system?). Treatment of injuries in sport along with the sciences involved in increasing athletic performances in sport and moving arts (also work ergonomics) gives us the opportunity to continually improve on what we assume is good.

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 Post subject: knee circles...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:25 pm 
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We've discussed this before and I agree that "exaggerated" circular movements with the knees are not recommended. Movement of the knees in a slight inward-outward motion with more emphasis on the vertical action of the legs is harmless and may strengthen tendons that can be easily torn by an accidental twist or kick to the knee.

Fully extended "air kicks" is in my estimation a far more dangerous and damaging action for the knees and. . . far more commonly done in our dojo.

Junbi undo and hojo undo, properly performed, is an excellent way to teach proper basic uechi moves and once learned "properly", can be safely practiced for life.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:58 pm 
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CANDANeh wrote:

The knee circles I have issue with, better ways to warm up the knees.

gmattson wrote:

We've discussed this before and I agree that "exaggerated" circular movements with the knees are not recommended. Movement of the knees in a slight inward-outward motion with more emphasis on the vertical action of the legs is harmless and may strengthen tendons that can be easily torn by an accidental twist or kick to the knee.

Interesting...
gmattson wrote:

Fully extended "air kicks" is in my estimation a far more dangerous and damaging action for the knees and. . . far more commonly done in our dojo.

Even more interesting... ;) Why are "air kicks" dangerous, and "air strikes" in Sanchin not? Anyone remember getting "karate elbow" when you first started martial arts? I think any of us who did our martial arts training with any level of intent got that affliction.

For a while...

And then it went away. And why?? Did we thrust less hard? Actually... no. Paradoxically the problem cured itself when we thrusted HARDER. Over time, we developed a built-in protective mechanism. It taps into something called the dynamic stretch reflex.
  • Well-developed biceps and a biceps tendon reflex stop the arm from hyperextending. The reflex is proportional to the speed of lengthening of the biceps muscle. It can be developed in the same way that jumping ability can be developed (plyometrically).
  • Similarly, well-developed hamstring muscles and hamstring tendon reflexes stop the leg from hyperextending. Don't take my word for it; it's in the literature. The problem with most karateka is that they overdevelop their quads (from deep stances and squats-and-kicks) and do not develop the antagonistic muscle at the same pace. Literature shows that when the ratio of quad to hamstring strength gets above 3/2, then you are an injury waiting to happen.
But George throws us off track. And I digress by taking the bait. ;)

My Canadian friend has a point here. On the one hand, we have this opinion.
gmattson wrote:

Junbi undo <snip>, properly performed, is an excellent way to teach proper basic uechi moves and once learned "properly", can be safely practiced for life.

And on the other hand, we have this fact.
CANDANeh wrote:

the Junbi undo were basically modified exercises once used in the Japanese school system

One very important reason to be teaching "Uechi history" is to understand the origins and contexts of what "we" do as a formal style.

The junbi undo are a series of "warm up" exercises based on a 1960s era understanding of generic physical education. There are any number of things done back then (e,g, ballistic stretching, straight-legged sit-ups., duck walking, vibrating belt machines) which by today's standards get graded from the useless to the dangerous to the eminently laughable. To wit...

The fantasy

Image

The reality

Image

These machines now find their ways into University Physical Education museums to emphasize the nonsense that comes about when we shy away from evidence-based methods.

Image

So before I go about stating my personal experiences and the results of my research, I caution everyone about defending what may be the indefensible. There's no "tradition" associated with the junbi undo. They're merely a bunch of 60's era PE exercises for Japanese grammar school students. They are no more and no less than that. A critical examination absolutely is in order.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Well. . .
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:19 pm 
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I was taught to keep my shoulders down (however not in an exaggerated manner as preferred by some teachers) by using my lats. Keeping the shoulders down will not allow my arms to hyper-extend during a full powered "air" strike. Most of my knowledge of joint damage comes from seeing thousands of students performing over the years and questioning them about the condition of their various arm/leg joints. I also keep track of training methods and various joint operations/replacements and have come to the conclusion that their is a relationship between what I consider to be stressful punching/kicking methods and joint pain and/or injuries.

As a teacher I subscribe to a saying that Bill is very familiar with. . . "First do no harm"!

And as someone who has learned from his teaching mistakes I strongly recommend to students that they listen to their body - don't "work through your pain". Train for the long term.

Most teachers will recommend a conservative approach to body conditioning. Yet, if you allow someone to beat on your arm enough. . . even if you are a new student. . . soon you will not feel the pain! Most teachers would not recommend this however.

Pain is the body's way of telling you to ease off and possibly that you are doing something wrong. In 5 -10 -20 -30 years when you are walking with your titanium joints and other problems, how many will blame what they did as a youth for what they are suffering with at that time???

Re: Junbi Undo: I don't believe anyone said they were "traditional". I just happen to like them as a warm-up. However the Hojo undo advanced exercises are uechi-ryu based and I like them as well.

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Last edited by gmattson on Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:19 pm 
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FWIW, we continue to perform the Junbi undo, but we've added several exercises to the regimen -- mostly material I've picked up by travelling around, working with others, and working other styles, as well as good material I've picked up by watching 'expensive' DVDs.

With the body of knowledge available today there's no excuse for perfoming damaging exercises.

When I'm in doubt I usually consult with a physio therapist.

I think Bill's observation above is really interesting -- about getting 'karate elbow'.

I work with my body as a tradesman and I remember all the little injuries, sore spots and tendonitis I got at the beginning. Eventually, as the body got stronger, they all went away.

However, I wonder if there is a segment of the population today who is so out of touch with their bodies that they don't take the chance and ride the curve....I'm not blaming the media, but all the hype around things like carpal tunnel syndrome seems to have changed the way people perceive the pain that comes from transforming the body. Consequently they quit as soon as things become a little sore.

Incidently, there's an abdominal excercise we do in Golden Eagle which I believe the vibrating machine attempts (but fails) to simulate: you relax the pelvis and kind of shake your booty while maintaining the integrity of your stance -- it really works the tranverse (??) muscles that we work with the breathing exercises at the end of the Junbi undo. Looks really silly, but really works the muscles as well!

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 Post subject: correction. . .
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:41 pm 
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typing too fast...

I was referring to "hojo undo" with the comment ". . . is an excellent way to teach proper basic uechi moves . . ." not junbi-undo".

Sorry for that.

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 Post subject: Very Interesting
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:33 am 
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So before I go about stating my personal experiences and the results of my research, I caution everyone about defending what may be the indefensible. There's no "tradition" associated with the junbi undo. They're merely a bunch of 60's era PE exercises for Japanese grammar school students. They are no more and no less than that. A critical examination absolutely is in order.

- Bill
Quote:

I can't wait to hear more....... Really. 8)


I was taught to keep my shoulders down (however not in an exaggerated manner as preferred by some teachers) by using my lats. Keeping the shoulders down will not allow my arms to hyper-extend during a full powered "air" strike. Most of my knowledge of joint damage comes from seeing thousands of students performing over the years and questioning them about the condition of their various arm/leg joints. I also keep track of training methods and various joint operations/replacements and have come to the conclusion that their is a relationship between what I consider to be stressful punching/kicking methods and joint pain and/or injuries.
Quote:

I must say as of yet I have not had any elbow problems. I also tell my students not to fully extend the strike, in order to avoid elbow injury. But, I must say that they still do at least part of the time. I also catch myself fully extending the arm though not "intentionally".

My knowledge base, limited though it may be, comes from my time as a P.E. Major in college, personal research, and I've also been a Physical Therapy tech. for a few years.

In listening to joint replacement patients, I sometimes think the causes they state for their problems are far from fact, at least in a sense. To listen to the patients these are some things you should avoid: Jumping off heavy machinery, running, driving trucks........... I know these all make sense. But we also have patients, (the ones that do not tell you what to avoid in your youth), that are young, homemakers, school teachers, etc., etc.

I'm another good example.

I have some range of motion problems with my hips at 41.

I even mentioned to GEM, that I thought it was due to some movements I did while taking Shito-Ryu. The truth is I DON'T KNOW, what caused it.

I also had a parent of a student years ago, that told the child if he did stretches, he would get stretch marks, like he had gotten while doing TKD as a kid. At that time it sounded ridiculous. With maturity and knowledge, I realized that it was possible, and probably a reality for that Parent.

I guess what I'm saying is that as Instructors we have to continuously research and try to improve what we do, while at the same time..... We must not project our own maladies onto our students. Everyone is different and what cripples one, may have no effect whatsoever on another.

One last example of this would be the front kick George mentioned. I shared George's Instruction of how the kick should be done to avoid damaging the knee joint, with a physical therapist friend of mine. She agreed, I think her exact words were "He's a smart man, listen to him". :D

I still generally try to do the kick without full extension, the problem is, if I do it with any speed at all it kills my right knee! "Locking" the leg out does not. Why does it cause pain? Who knows? It could be from running, it could be from kicking "incorrectly" for years, my build, etc.

I'm rambling, but I'm enjoying all the info and discussion.

Bert

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:14 am 
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Hey Bert, do you remember the way we did sit-ups in class in the mid-1980s, while sitting in seiza? Did those ever cause you any trouble? I developed some knee issues while those were part of my routine, that cleared up after I stopped doing them and have not reappeared since so I am reasonably confident of the cause and effect. I also remember our teacher always complained about his knees having issues that he attributed to when he played football in high school, but I have to wonder how much was due to those sit-ups. What I do not know is if he learned those at the Shinjo dojo or somewhere else.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Hey Bill,

Do you _ Think that fantasy lady you posted might want take a ride in a GTI?
:wink:

I have a few 'junbi undo' moves I could show her 8)

Image

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Hey Bert, do you remember the way we did sit-ups in class in the mid-1980s, while sitting in seiza?

Glenn
Quote:

Yes I remember. Never had any problems, but then again I visited Ihor Rymaruk's dojo in Schenectady NY in 86 just after receiving my Sho-Dan. Ihor saw me doing it as a warm-up, and apparently wasn't impressed. He explained the importance of not doing it any more, so I discontinued it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:54 pm 
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[/quote]Hey Bill,

Do you _ Think that fantasy lady you posted might want take a ride in a GTI?


I have a few 'junbi undo' moves I could show her

Quote:

LMAO Van!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:38 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:

Do you _ Think that fantasy lady you posted might want take a ride in a GTI?
:wink:

You like her hair, no? :P

It took you long enough... When I found that image, one person came to mind. ;)

- Bill


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