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I believe that Tiger Boxing can be easily discerned in Uechi Ryu.
I believe that Dragon Boxing can be easily discerned in Uechi Ryu. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I believe that Crane Boxing can be easily discerned in Uechi Ryu. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I believe that Uechi Ryu appears more similar to "Five Ancestor Fist", than to Tiger, Dragon, or Crane boxing. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I believe Uechi Ryu is a unique style combining the most effective techniques being cataloged and systematised at the time. Dragon, Tiger, and Crane, is a reference to principles, rather than an imitating of animal movements. 14%  14%  [ 1 ]
I believe Uechi Ryu to be an ancient Chinese style of fighting. It was transmitted "secretly", and passed down uindiluted over many centuries. It recently became extinct in China, however the transplanting of "Pangainoon" by Kanbun Ue 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I believe that, in the Okinawan tradition, Uechi Ryu is the result of the genius of Kanbun Uechi to synthesise what he had learned and been exposed to while in China. "Pangainoon" is a reference to methodolgy, and not a Chinese Style's Name. Uec 86%  86%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 7
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:04 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:43 am 
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I'd have a real hard time picking just one of those.

I think a fair hypothesis is that Shushiwa taught Kanbun something that was pretty unique at the time. The Chinese are great at creativity and choreography, and the Japanese and Okinawans are great at perfecting ideas. The same is true as far as R&D in the United States vs. industrial execution and quality control in Japan. So what we see as "Uechi Ryu" to me looks very Chinese, but I believe the Okinawans can be credited with perfecting what amounts to a snapshot in time of Chinese martial arts.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it! ;)

- Bill


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 Post subject: Tiger Dragon Crane
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:15 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:49 am 
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Certainly Shushiwa's art wasn't created in a vacuum. I see principles taught in Uechi Ryu everywhere, but in various flavors. When I do the version of Hamahiga no tonfa taught to me by Yonamine, I see lots of Seisan. Same with Tsukenshitahaku no sai, which was taught to me by another Uechi master (whose name I can no longer remember). There is a "Seisan-ness" to many forms - both on Okinawa and from China. One sees how Goju's Seisan and Uechi's Seisan probably had a common origin.

Sanchin can also be found in various manifestations both from China and on Okinawa.

Uechi Sanseiryu? Closest thing I've ever seen to it is the Fuzhou Suparenpei that Simon Lailey taught me. Otherwise it's one of a kind. Maybe that was truly something unique to Shushiwa.

It's also worth mentioning that I see a lot in common with Southern Mantis. Different mascot, but similar principles.
Thomas Ferguson wrote:

The era in Chinese History, falls shortly after the "Opium Wars"; and, preceding, during, and shortly after, the "Boxer Rebellion".

The more I discover the combat applications of Uechi's style (sadly little of it taught to me by any Okinawan Uechi master), the more I see how context was everything here. There's an oral history of Uechi's art making its way around. I truly believe that some of the Boxers involved in anti-British activities were delving into the body of knowledge that Uechi's art sprang from. Just my opinion... There's a cold, efficient brutality to many of the techniques in the style that have little to do with Okinawan sport karate or the Okinawan art of the closed fist.

Among the rumors floating around... The "student who killed a neighbor in a boundary dispute" is a nice story that protects Kanbun's reputation. Evidence can be found in The Kyohon and elsewhere that perhaps Kanbun had some exploits that made him feel a need to hide outside China for a while. That kind of paradigm shift makes some of the stories of how he was superstitious about photos, swore off teaching because his student killed someone, etc. to be rather quaint and frankly not very convincing.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:37 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:30 am 
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The closed fist and sport fighting are from mainland Japan, not an invention of the Okinawans. They are from Shotokan are far as my research has shown me. I think it is Alan Dollars book or in a magazine interview with Gushi sensei when he discusses the first black belt teston Oki and the melee that ocurred when they were told to fight. It seems they were lucky anyone survived if I remember correctly.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:23 am 
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I do believe that the Okinawans used a closed fist along with other hand forms long before the Japanese influence on Te. Higashionna was the person who introduced the fist into Sanchin supposedly because he noticed Okinawans making it when they fought, so it was around quite a bit.
So no evil Japanese karate ruiner guys in regards to the closed fist. 8)
Also in ragards to sport, in several styles of karate there is the story of the rock...
Quote:
Several sources report that Okinawa held sporting competitions of bare-handed boxing amongst karate experts from time to time. There is a large rock in Naha City called the Ude-Kakeshi (The Rock Where Arms Come Together). It is a huge rock in front of Yamagataya in the city of Naha. If a fighter put a hand on the rock, any other fighters around immediately challenged him to combat. “Meeting out by the rock” became an Okinawan tradition, one that Funakoshi’s teacher Itosu is reported to have participated in a few times for no other reason than to prove his methods worked 7. No finer example of karate competition can be found. Itosu was training for sport purposes as well as any other purposes he might have had himself.
Robert Redmond
We had the same kind of sport on Oregon Hill back in the day.

BTW, I'm looking at Funakoshi's Kyohan and karate as taught by Funakoshi, or at least by the book, used at least 7 hand forms, none of which is a normal closed fist and two were single knuckle. But the JKA and Kyukoshin guys used it a lot and to good effect.

Just throwing a different view into the mix.

@Thomas Ferguson, Where'd your posts go? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:43 pm 
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I just read through the section on Hiagaonna in Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters by Nagamine Sensei which I consider a reliable source. No mention of his closing the fist in Sanchin. It does mention his training Sanchin and other forms in his ten years in China. I do know in Robert Trias's book he says it was his student Miyagi who closed the fist. I have less confidence in that record.
Do you have a source for that Mike?
Of course Uechi always had a hammer fist and uraken, so we did always have a closed fist of sorts.

F.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:28 am 
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Unfortunately my sources, as with most karate history, is sparse and not very reliable. Not to mention I can't remember where I read or heard it from. I did find a reference to the story in [url=http://books.google.com/books?id=KwjtqbXTLqwC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=sanchin+closed+fist+Higashionna&source=bl&ots=AD2GRKLBRv&sig=nHmFPygkg2y0jehx-_dQP3mTlxA&hl=en&ei=UUudTJPFG8P6lweKvbDFCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=sanchin%20closed%20fist%20Higashionna&f=false]The Way of Kata: A Comprehensive Guide to Deciphering Martial Applications
By Lawrence A. Kane, Kris Wilder[/url]. Page 6, but that's not enough to prove history. I'll have to ask them where they heard the story which may trigger where I remembered it from.

I may have been this blog post by Morio McKenna a few years back as I had an old link to it.
Quote:
Sanchin is often described as being the most important kata taught in Naha lineage based styles such as Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, and Tou’on-ryu. In the styles that trace their lineage back to Higaonna Kanryo, authors have stated that Higaonna brought this kata (along with others) back from China (e.g. Higaonna Morio, Kinjo Akio, Toguchi Seikichi, etc.). In contrast, Chito-ryu founder Chinen Gochoku (Chitose Tsuyoshi) writes that he learned sanchin kata from Aragaki Seisho (the original teacher of Higaonna Kanryo).

This would suggest that sanchin kata was in existence on Okinawa before Higaonna traveled to China. In the Higa Seko lineage of Goju-ryu and Tou’on-ryu lineage of Kyoda Juhatsu, both schools state that Higaonna originally taught sanchin kata with the hands open. Indeed, in the Tou’on-ryu lineage, Kyoda was reportedly told to do it the way he felt most comfortable (closed fist or open hand). Kyoda's experience is very similar to that of Shiroma Shinpan in Mark Bishop’s book “Okinawa Karate”.

This information to contrasts Miyagi Chojun and his closed fist and dynamic version of sanchin. According to Kinjo Akio, upon his return from China, Miyagi questioned Higaonna about which version was correct. While in China, Miyagi had seen versions that were very loud and vibrant. Higaonna apparently replied that both versions were correct.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:37 am 
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The other reason is Higashionna's students, some of whom like Mabuni taught Sanchin with their hands closed.

Sh ito-ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKLKMAr3 ... re=related

Tou’on-ryu Sanchin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdLKFTvvy3g

I think the fist is just one of the hand forms that humans do naturally and just appears in many fighting methods.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:26 am 
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MikeK wrote:

@Thomas Ferguson, Where'd your posts go? :?

I too was upset that Tom chose to delete his posts. They were very thought-provoking, and perfectly appropriate for anyone who has both been in the military and studied traditional martial arts.

If you kept copies, Tom, please reconsider and re-post. I enjoyed what you had to say.

More later.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Has anyone ever noticed most Karate history and kata record begin after about 1850? It would make sense with Okinawa's postion as a middle man in trade between China and Japan as the Dutch were the middle man for the western world and Japan through the Tokugawa Shogunate, that the Okinawans would have been exposed to Chinese culture and martial traditions much earlier than 1850. So other than Tegumi (supposedly a native fighting system) why wasn't Chinese based systems in existence prior to Hiagonna and Uechi and others travelling to China to learn them?
I would think extensive cultural exchanges between China and Okinawa were ocurring from at least 1600 forward.
One guess is that forms were not organized and put together before the 19th century in China?

F.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Fred

Your hypotheses are perfectly valid.

The reason why the Okinawans are ethnically closer to Chinese than Japanese has a lot to do with their history of trade. Farming, fishing, and trade defined the economy of the Ryukyu islands.

And yes, much of early Okinawan martial arts (save for tegumi) had origins in martial knowledge imported from China.

Uechi Ryu sanseiryu is perhaps the only form that Okinawa had not seen - in some form - prior to Kanbun coming back. Flavors of Sanchin and Seisan had been part of Naha te for quite some time.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:28 pm 
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I don't think it's a forms thing but possibly martial arts on Okinawa were more informal before the 1930's. I think it's interesting to note that much of the history of Okinawan karate begins with guys who were teachers of Funakoshi, Miyagi, Mabuni, and others of their generation. Then the stories get dodgy at best about earlier karate practitioners.

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