Lawsuits to protect Free Speech against Religious Violence?

[AAAhmed46]

I just find that i end up having to respond to alot of points, or clarify stuff. From both those who agree and those who disagree.

I think we agree on most points. I just say that there isn't as much silence from moderates as people think.

[Jason Rees]

Just because the news fails to report fatwas doesn't mean there are not many. And there are many.

Maybe instead of a fatwah they could do a press release. It's not difficult.

In previous posts, i have posted lists upon lists of major organization s giving condemnation.

Do you have any idea how easy it is to get attention in this country if you try? Anything out of the ordinary gets the press' attention immediately. A photo posted online from an iPhone can have the press on location within an hour. College campus groups are practically experts at this.

Also, the guys who threatened south park were THREE MEN from revolution muslim, a site run by THREE PEOPLE. All three who were banned from new york mosques, because they were harassing other muslims with their craziness.

And where are they now? Were they turned in by their muslim brothers? Or aided in escaping the country?

And yet this spawned what? An entire stupid campaign? Because CNN decided to pick up a story about three retards who got pissed off at south park?

As long as people are threatened by close-minded fanatics over a stupid cartoon, it is never stupid to campaign for freedom of speech and expression. Never. I'd love to see the internet littered with a million drawings of that child-molesting pervert. May these loonies slather themselves into a fury so long they suffer a stroke.

Where do Muslims get the idea that their religion should get a free pass from criticism? Christianity's been fried on the stake of atheist wit for nigh 400-500 years now. Spread the wealth and don't forget to bring the marshmallows, cause this barbecue ain't stopping anytime soon.

There are people speaking out against ass backward practices all the time. You just have to look for it, because it isn't being picked up. Not enough sensationalism to create the media entertainment news has become.

No. We don't have to look for it. YOU say it's not being picked up, that it's out there. I say someone's not trying hard enough. When I can drive down the street and see a billboard from PETA asking 'Got Beer?" Don't tell me somebody's trying. You can make news in this country with nothing. Spending a few thousand dollars will get you 15 minutes of fame. A youtube video or a facebook post can go viral in 24 hours.

For several years, the press made a big deal out of billboards with messages like "The wedding was beautiful. Now invite me to the marriage," and "Think it's hot now?"

It wouldn't take a great deal of imagination to get the message out. Just a little more effort. And I'm not seeing it.

[Jason Rees]

WHy am i posting so much? Becuase i know im outnumbered so I have put it all out as fast as possible. Before the sheer shitload of rebuttals come in.

I see alot of headlines, but very few links. Kinda hard to respond to headlines.

We're not the only ones demanding Muslims speak up, Ahmed.

Kansas City

Stop prosecuting people for speaking their minds.

Get over the criticism of Islam.

[Jason Rees]

On not calling out on extremists: as i stated before, already done. Plenty of major organizations and mosques issues fatwas against terrorism.

Not seeing it. Already posted about that.

Number 2, why add more fire on to an already blamed group? Whether it's true or not, muslims feel they are already under fire. Many feel they dont have to talk about these issues to the media and only bring the good front because frankly, non-muslims are doing enough to bring up all our dirty laundry.

See, that's part of the problem. Oh, those poor muslims, they're so put-upon. Anti-abortionists take heat every time some bible-thumper kills an abortionist. Militias took a ton of heat after the Oklahoma City bombing. Kids who dressed in goth style were targeted after the Littleton School massacre. 3,000 people die as the result of the actions of 18 terrorists who happened to be Muslim... gee, how could people have over-reacted on that one?

They could very well be wrong. But this is how they feel right now. Your sean Hannities and Ayaan Hirsi Ali's doesn't help. Hell Irshad manji doesn't help either, though she means well.

Hehe... you can't foist AHA on us like that. African muslims get full credit for that one. :p As for Sean Hannity, deal with it. We have Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews bashing 'Fundamentalist Christians' daily. Your hero, Maher, is a major critic of Christianity (not to mention any other religion), and goes out of his way to bash Christians.

On authors:
Rushdie has FAR more legit reasons to complain than Hirsi does. The dutch documentary i posted(remember that?) showed that she continued to correspond with her family, with brother and father long after she went to the netherlands. I think she is simply taking advantage of the political situation. Her description of somalia does not match up with what i have seen from other somalian woman and their experiences.

Your prejudice is showing. I remember the video you posted, and I called you on it. It didn't contain what you claimed it contained. 'I think,' and 'does not match up with what I have seen' is not evidence that she's a lying crook. Climb out of your echo chamber, man.

She talks about walking around with a bodyguard, but so does Daisy Khan and Imam faisal rauf.

It's easy to criticize someone for having a bodyguard when you don't need one yourself. :p

Now Rushdie? The man wrote a book, satire. Thats all the satanic versus were, angry satire.

And people tried to kill him for it. Crazy world we live in, eh?

Molly Norris deserves our support as well:
I would also point out, Molly norris backed away from everybody draw muhammed day when she saw the sheer amount of scat/horrible polemic. Long before anyone declared a will to chop off her head.

That doesn't help your case any. There's no point in trying to be reasonable with people who scream "Off with their heads!" You can cry foul about Sean Hannity all you want, but he's not screaming for your head.

[AAAhmed46]

Maybe instead of a fatwah they could do a press release. It's not difficult.

Maybe they should. But doesn't discount that they are acting against extremism, talking about it, and making clear statements against it.

There have been entire conferences on this. Some specifically on pakistan.

Do you have any idea how easy it is to get attention in this country if you try? Anything out of the ordinary gets the press' attention immediately. A photo posted online from an iPhone can have the press on location within an hour. College campus groups are practically experts at this.

They why haven't i seen any reporting about any of these denounciations? Why no one talks about it? I remember seeing faisal rauf running around(and as stupid as his choice of location is, a guy who worked with the FBI and promoting american foreign policy for the bush administration isn't a secret terrorist) but rarely a mention of him.

And where are they now? Were they turned in by their muslim brothers? Or aided in escaping the country?

Oh they were turned on. Did anyone act? I don't know. Ive seen people say they are fake converts. I know they arn't taken seriously.

As long as people are threatened by close-minded fanatics over a stupid cartoon, it is never stupid to campaign for freedom of speech and expression. Never. I'd love to see the internet littered with a million drawings of that child-molesting pervert. May these loonies slather themselves into a fury so long they suffer a stroke.

Have you read alternative opinions other than what AHA writes? You can do it all you want. But I don't see muslims creating a draw jesus day or Buddha day or vishnu day. Believe it or not, with exception of Takfiris, it's a sin to mock someone elses religion. This is a post-hijra principle as well. I don't know what your religious views are. But i would never write what you just wrote.
Also, you can't control who you hold dear to yourself. If i found a picture of your motehr and father on the net and photoshopped it to make it look like they are in scat or demaining sexual acts. I doubt you would be happy. I have the right to do it, but it isn't exactly civilized behavior. You posted before how working with muslims is important for american success in the middle east. Do you think such things aid in teh cause?

Where do Muslims get the idea that their religion should get a free pass from criticism? Christianity's been fried on the stake of atheist wit for nigh 400-500 years now. Spread the wealth and don't forget to bring the marshmallows, cause this barbecue ain't stopping anytime soon.

Because they simply are not used to it. But they certainly are getting used to it rather quickly.
And nobody is talking about banning the bible, but they are talking about this for the quran. And they are getting a powerful following.

No. We don't have to look for it. YOU say it's not being picked up, that it's out there. I say someone's not trying hard enough. When I can drive down the street and see a billboard from PETA asking 'Got Beer?" Don't tell me somebody's trying. You can make news in this country with nothing. Spending a few thousand dollars will get you 15 minutes of fame. A youtube video or a facebook post can go viral in 24 hours.

alot of them are not very popular among non-muslims. But here are some SALAFI/WAHABBI and one sufi scholar talking about craziness and violence by muslims which i have seen blasted over every muslim profile on facebook. I have seen this in most muslim profiles, but never non-muslim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IofpsHOosE

And this guy is ALWAYS complaining about problems in the muslim world/practice. He hates most of teh guys above even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzP9WoMLph8

Viral on muslim facebook sites. Yet have you seen it before i posted this?

For several years, the press made a big deal out of billboards with messages like "The wedding was beautiful. Now invite me to the marriage," and "Think it's hot now?"

It wouldn't take a great deal of imagination to get the message out. Just a little more effort. And I'm not seeing it.

If you don't see the air, but you know it's there. There is alot of work done against extremism. Besides, look at the conflict taht happened when judaism interacted with the west? It was messy, even attempted genocide. But now centuries later, the relationship is far less bumpy.

[AAAhmed46]

Check out this book very good. Had no loyalty to left or right.

http://www.demos.co.uk/publications/theedgeofviolence

[AAAhmed46]

From a deradicalization conference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD6LuH0-WZY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb0Hyk7SwjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZNNZHSI-2Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsYNRAYm ... re=related

[AAAhmed46]

WHy am i posting so much? Becuase i know im outnumbered so I have put it all out as fast as possible. Before the sheer shitload of rebuttals come in.

I see alot of headlines, but very few links. Kinda hard to respond to headlines.

We're not the only ones demanding Muslims speak up, Ahmed.

Kansas City

Stop prosecuting people for speaking their minds.

Get over the criticism of Islam.

You have any idea how long it would take to hyperlink it all?

It's stupid trying to prosecute Wilders. But i do think if he is nuts. Even glenn beck and GIngrich distanced themselves from him.

[AAAhmed46]

See, that's part of the problem. Oh, those poor muslims, they're so put-upon. Anti-abortionists take heat every time some bible-thumper kills an abortionist. Militias took a ton of heat after the Oklahoma City bombing. Kids who dressed in goth style were targeted after the Littleton School massacre. 3,000 people die as the result of the actions of 18 terrorists who happened to be Muslim... gee, how could people have over-reacted on that one?

And yet, who came to the defense of milita folk? Other militia folk. They didn't add more dirty laundry to a heavy load. The pointed out clean clothes, that was being missed out. Who defended goths? Usually other goths. Why talk about problem within their own folk when everyone elsee is not looking at the good? So they talk about the good.

And what about muslim anger over support of dictatorships? Believe it or not, saudi arabia's government had uprisings against it. yet tiem and time again, America and France aided in putting these down.

Hehe... you can't foist AHA on us like that. African muslims get full credit for that one. :p As for Sean Hannity, deal with it. We have Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews bashing 'Fundamentalist Christians' daily. Your hero, Maher, is a major critic of Christianity (not to mention any other religion), and goes out of his way to bash Christians.

Yet compare MSNBC's ratings with FOX news? No one is listening to them.

Your prejudice is showing. I remember the video you posted, and I called you on it. It didn't contain what you claimed it contained. 'I think,' and 'does not match up with what I have seen' is not evidence that she's a lying crook. Climb out of your echo chamber, man.

Ive changed my views of her, but still view her as an opporunist. But still that documentary did show her in contact with her father and brotehr long after she landed in europe. If you want, we can dig it up again. I no longer really view her as someone who promotes hatred, but i do think she is an opportunist, and her support for wilders rightfully scares many.

That said, I should have written this earlier in the thread, her positions and critiques are far far more academic than so many others such as Geller etc. She still plays on peoples fears though.

Of all of them, i like Christopher hitchens the most as a critic of islam. Even among the neo-atheists, Hitchens seems most consistent and least hypocritical. I was won when he jumped on Sam Harris. If you compare the two, they will argue the same thing. BUt hitchens will pull out well researched and philosophical arguments to people he has contempt for, while Harris comes across like a kid sticking out his tongue.

Unlike Ayaan Hirsi Ali, he attacks the culture, but does so in a way i find FAR more believable, less far fetched. He has been to the middle east and to pakistan. He has been all over. I too misunderstood him until I looked at his work in more detail.

It's easy to criticize someone for having a bodyguard when you don't need one yourself. :p

Just as Ali recieved death threates, so have those two. Yet we use Ali's need of a body guard problematic, but not Daisy Khan?

And people tried to kill him for it. Crazy world we live in, eh?

Yes it *****.

That doesn't help your case any. There's no point in trying to be reasonable with people who scream "Off with their heads!" You can cry foul about Sean Hannity all you want, but he's not screaming for your head.

But then whats the problem with being reasonable to people who don't say off with your head?

I never said there wasn't a problem. But she herself was horrified by the pictures that were coming in, and fraternized with muslims. It was muslims who also came running to her aid, and there is a petition by muslims, about defending molly norris. I signed it.

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/fe ... n_muslims/


I would also like to point out that it was a TERRORIST group that threatened Molly Norris.


And here is a major elected official CHASTISING the 'silent' majority. Yet this has not been picked up either. Nothing like a major story.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/ind ... als/401881

Something like this happens nearly every year. Reported breifly with people sayin 'finanally moderates are speaking up' but then time goes by and they forget about it, saying again 'why so much silence?'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNDanFjzHek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNDanFjzHek

[AAAhmed46]

And honestly, I am the only poster on this thread trying to argue an alternative view. Shouldn't that show why muslims tend not to tackle these issues as often? Because do i even NEED to point out the problems right now in the middle east?

[Jason Rees]

They why haven't i seen any reporting about any of these denounciations? Why no one talks about it? I remember seeing faisal rauf running around(and as stupid as his choice of location is, a guy who worked with the FBI and promoting american foreign policy for the bush administration isn't a secret terrorist) but rarely a mention of him.

Why is his choice of location 'stupid,' and what does his work with the FBI have to do anything, and who's accusing him of being a secret terrorist, and what does this have to do with the discussion here? Another red herring?

And where are they now? Were they turned in by their muslim brothers? Or aided in escaping the country?

Oh they were turned on. Did anyone act? I don't know. Ive seen people say they are fake converts. I know they arn't taken seriously.

Ah, the old, "they embarrass us, so they're not true Muslims... and oops, we don't know where they are, sorry..."

They threatened to kill someone for speaking their mind. For talking about a religion. I can see you don't take that kind of thing seriously. That's obviously part of the problem.

Have you read alternative opinions other than what AHA writes? You can do it all you want. But I don't see muslims creating a draw jesus day or Buddha day or vishnu day.

Be my guest. Think there will be any death threats over it? I can find illustrations of Buddha easily, and Christian art for 2,000 years has been centered on Jesus, and Western art was centered on Christian religious imagery for over a thousand years.

Believe it or not, with exception of Takfiris, it's a sin to mock someone elses religion. This is a post-hijra principle as well. I don't know what your religious views are. But i would never write what you just wrote.

I'm not mocking a religion. I mock the founder of it, since he married a 9 year old, ordered hundreds of deaths, including assassinations, and declared that a woman's silence is to be construed as consent. I didn't learn any of that from AHA, so you can toss that broken record of a response. This stuff is historical fact, verified by a reading of the koran.

Don't feel like I'm singling Islam out. I could spend a day talking about crooks like Joseph Smith, too. You can judge a great deal about a religion by its founder.

You posted before how working with muslims is important for american success in the middle east. Do you think such things aid in teh cause?

Muslims have to embrace the concept of a pluralistic society, where freedom of speech counts for more than that which does not offend. It's the price of admission.

Because they simply are not used to it. But they certainly are getting used to it rather quickly. And nobody is talking about banning the bible, but they are talking about this for the quran. And they are getting a powerful following.

Who is this 'they?' France is banning face-covering garments. I don't see banning of books in the media anywhere. Personally, I think everyone should read the koran.

If you don't see the air, but you know it's there.

Because I'm breathing it, and I know about Oxygen, CO2, Nitrogen, and the effects of atmospheric pressure on gases.

There is alot of work done against extremism. Besides, look at the conflict taht happened when judaism interacted with the west? It was messy, even attempted genocide. But now centuries later, the relationship is far less bumpy.

Yes, it is less 'bumpy.' Now it's just the Islamic world trying to wipe out the jews. Where's the 'lot of work done against extremism' when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

[Jason Rees]

It's stupid trying to prosecute Wilders. But i do think if he is nuts. Even glenn beck and GIngrich distanced themselves from him.

Why is he nuts? Because he agrees with economists and historians that point to an alarming increase in the Muslim population in the area displacing Western civilization? That's not crazy. It's common sense. Just like giving citizenship to the millions of illegal immigrants in the United States would instantly change the outcome of electoral politics here. It's not a question of if. Only when.

[Jason Rees]

And what about muslim anger over support of dictatorships? Believe it or not, saudi arabia's government had uprisings against it. yet tiem and time again, America and France aided in putting these down.

As long as Saudi Arabia remains an ally to the United States, our government will probably continue to aid in keeping a stable government there. Especially since SA is one of the less fanatical Islamic governments. A zealot like Ahmadhinejad(sp) in charge of Saudi Arabia? Why take the chance?

Yet compare MSNBC's ratings with FOX news? No one is listening to them.

Well, fewer people are listening to them anyway. See? Americans can generally smell crap and avoid stepping in it.

Ive changed my views of her, but still view her as an opporunist. But still that documentary did show her in contact with her father and brotehr long after she landed in europe. If you want, we can dig it up again. I no longer really view her as someone who promotes hatred, but i do think she is an opportunist, and her support for wilders rightfully scares many.

Her friend was murdered, shot and stabbed by a Muslim fanatic. I wonder how you might feel about them if that happened to someone you were close to. Opportunist? If she's got to be in hiding, and can make a living getting her message out, well, it's kind of the American way. Her support for Wilders makes sense, considering the points she makes are in line with his. As a political scientist, she sees the destabilizing influence of Islam in Western nations.

That said, I should have written this earlier in the thread, her positions and critiques are far far more academic than so many others such as Geller etc. She still plays on peoples fears though.

I see. You must think mothers play on childrens' fears when they tell their children to look both ways before crossing the street?

Of all of them, i like Christopher hitchens the most as a critic of islam. Even among the neo-atheists, Hitchens seems most consistent and least hypocritical. I was won when he jumped on Sam Harris. If you compare the two, they will argue the same thing. But hitchens will pull out well researched and philosophical arguments to people he has contempt for, while Harris comes across like a kid sticking out his tongue.

Nah, Hitchens is sticking his tongue out too, but he'll have a martini in one hand and a cigar in the other while he does it! lol. Hitchens is definitely a clear voice against Islamic fundamentalism. And any other kind of religion. It's a shame he's got cancer.

Just as Ali recieved death threates, so have those two. Yet we use Ali's need of a body guard problematic, but not Daisy Khan?

Um, why does Daisy Khan have a bodyguard?

I never said there wasn't a problem. But she herself was horrified by the pictures that were coming in, and fraternized with muslims. It was muslims who also came running to her aid, and there is a petition by muslims, about defending molly norris. I signed it.

Great! But she still had to evaporate. What are Muslims doing to prevent this from occurring again?

I would also like to point out that it was a TERRORIST group that threatened Molly Norris.

Sounds pretty serious. I thought you said nobody was taking these goons seriously.

And here is a major elected official CHASTISING the 'silent' majority. Yet this has not been picked up either. Nothing like a major story.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/ind ... als/401881

What's he really doing to stop the radicals?

[IJ]

"Even among the neo-atheists, Hitchens seems most consistent and least hypocritical."

I'm just curious, what do you find inconsistent and hypocritical about the "neo-atheists"? To add to your anecdote, I have to agree I enjoyed Hitchens attacking Dawkins for his "cringe inducing" suggestion atheists be called "brights." (Nevermind the 'tude; atheists shouldn't have a name. There's no name for people who don't believe in Santa Clause or alchemy.) Besides, everyone I've ever heard of is a 99% atheist (atheist, or better, nonbeliever, with respect to all religions except their own).

[AAAhmed46]

It's stupid trying to prosecute Wilders. But i do think if he is nuts. Even glenn beck and GIngrich distanced themselves from him.

Why is he nuts? Because he agrees with economists and historians that point to an alarming increase in the Muslim population in the area displacing Western civilization? That's not crazy. It's common sense. Just like giving citizenship to the millions of illegal immigrants in the United States would instantly change the outcome of electoral politics here. It's not a question of if. Only when.

He talks about banning the quran, banning islam. There are speeches of him on youtube in a synagouges(blah spelling) wehre he says there are no moderate muslims. He isn't just a critic. He literally is calling for government enforced banning of religion. Carl Johnson, the guy who launched the anti-muslim blogsphere suddenly turned leftwing(too much if you ask me) because of association with Wilders, just out of disgust on what the man represents. I would rather have 100 ayaa Hirsi Ali's than 2 wilders.

Now i agree, europe has made many errors in it's immigration. It has alot to learn from north america, which if you look, overall is actually far more well integrated than what is seen in europe.

Freedom of Speech Summit that was held in Delray Beach, Florida(all of the speakers and organizers were anti-islamic, so really it should have another name)

“Islam is not a religion… the Quran is a book that calls for hatred, that calls for violence, for murder, for terrorism, for war, and submission…We should also stop pretending that Islam is a religion…the right to religious freedom should not apply to Islam."
Geert Wilders[/b]