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 Post subject: Re: Mike. . .
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:34 pm 
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gmattson wrote:
Yes, I suppose many early street brawls included going to the ground and included some kicking, but I suspect that street fighters today are far more skilled.


In my experience I haven't seen that as I still mostly see unbalanced haymakers, overhand rights (usually way out of range), bull rushes and much the same street techniques that have been around forever.
Once in awhile you'll get someone who may have trained in something or who does have legitimate skills, but I think it's the exception rather than the norm. Though I do prefer to err on the side that the other guy may know something. Also there is catching some bad luck at the wrong time.

Turn off your sound, lots of f-bombs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDgZXHXiR8k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akwYNlY-knw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO10tE6l9lw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-6RIxn ... re=related

Of course the videos doesn't cover but a fraction of what's out there.

And then there's this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iDlzL7z ... re=related

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Good post all true.
The Basttle of Sekigahara did bring about an economic boom to the lower classes who were responsible for washing the heads and applying makeup for presentation to the winners. It also brought about 250 years of peace through a strong government.

We do have it pretty good in comparison to the creators of the arts.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Here's one just for fun. These are 4 of your wholesome thanksgiving puritans in Massachusetts attacking and robbing a native. He escaped in spite of four attackers, and two stab wounds. This native knew how to fight., but died later anyway.
This is the actual transcribed text.

4 September 1638.

Arthur Peach, Thomas Jackson, Richard Stinnings, & Daniell Crosse were indicted for murther& robbing by the heigh way.They killed and robd one Penowanyanquis, an Indian, at Misquamsqueece, & took from him fiue fadome of wampeux, and three coates of wollen cloth.

. . . They found the said Arthur Peach, Thomas Jackson, and Richard Stinnings guilty of the said felonious murthering & robbing of the said Penowanyanquis, but say that they, nor any of them, had any lands or tennement, goods or cattles, at the tyme of the said felonie conitted that they know of; and so say they all.

Daniell Crosse made an escape, & so had not his tryall; but Peach, Jackson, & Stinnings had sentence of death pnounced; vizt, to be taken from the place where they were to the place from whence they came, and thence to the place of execucon, and there to be hanged by the neck vntill their bodyes were dead, wch was executed upon them accordingly

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Mattson Sensei,

I’ve been following this discussion a bit and would like to add my own observations.

I suppose the original premise might be based on several changes to history. The invasion of Okinawa never taking place so the Okinawan arts remained theirs alone. Then in Japan if McCarthur had a bad day, learning of the ‘experiments using karate on captured military personnel during WWII and as a result decided to suppress karate along with other Japanese martial arts, they may not have been found by US Military personnel.

Mr. Redman’s original discussion is somewhat flawed in that for the most part the Japanese did not start karate in this country. Him being a Shotokan stylist I understand his focus, but I think he vastly understated the role of returning US Military personnel creating the import of karate in the fist place.

Yes the entertainment industry in the West Coast did use karate in the Untouchables, the Man from Uncle, I Spy and other vehicles creating some awareness that karate existed but the returning servicemen from Okinawa, Japan and Korea did much more. You yourself are certainly an example. They found friends ,started clubs and drove much of the development.

On the other hand the only Japanese instructor I’m aware of Okasaki of the JKA, moved to Philadelphia and established a karate program at Temple University, I’m sure bolstered by him coming form the JKA University systems, their Instructor training program, etc. I know from there he also established an outside dojo and built his program forward. My roommate at Temple was one of his students in the mid 60’s.

He didn’t start by coming into the states to join the geek shows contesting against boxers and/or wrestlers. If the circumstances were different and this was occurring today, I’m sure others from Japan, trained like him would establish their own beachhead here using the same approach.

Assuming the rest of the world history remains the same, Japanese karate instructors would be well aware of what was happening world wide and would plan a karate invasion accordingly. On the other hand would the Okinawan’s even try instead preferring to keep what they have to themselves?

The art du jour will always be with us and anyone that wants that should do it, period.

Of course I come from a very different perspective, I only teach for free and run a program perhaps ½ step above a backyard dojo, teaching a small program through the boys and girls clubs for 30+ years and a much smaller adult program there too.

I teach the youth of my community because when I was young that’s what many adults did for the kids in many programs. To keep them out of trouble, provide guidance. It still exists in the youth soccer programs, little league, boy and girl scouts, etc.

Back when I was trying to work out how to start a program with no extra cash to pay for ir, before I started through the clubs, I used to walk around Scranton at lunch time and saw a city filled with dance studios. I realized what parents were paying to train their daughters, and once I started teaching the youth myself realized everyone trying to run a commercial karate program would be changing their programs in the future. No one believed me that to keep open they had to train youth, everyone, even my closest friends, thought I was crazy. Today any of them running a program are doing what I projected.

My program is somewhat different from other youth programs too. First they are in a mixed rank youth class but adults are never in the program. Second the course content is identical with the adult program. The average time for the exceptional youth to go from beginner to sho-dan standard takes about 7 to 9 years. Those who have done so have always been well focused and everyone of them leaves as they are then adults and have to move on in life. The first focus of the program is to make sure all students learn that they learn through their own efforts, nothing more. Those who have the personal focus to do more are the few who last.

On the other hand I recently copied about 100 hours of VSH tapes to DVD. Much of which was my friends/instructors from several systems (Isshinryu/Indonesian Shotokan/Aikido and Tjimande, and Chinese arts) who have taught my students, as well as at open clinics and camps over the past 30 years. The remaining tapes were snapshots of my program over the years. What stuck me most poignantly was that all of the hundreds of people in those venues have all left the arts, not just my students but everyone’s from every system. Whether small systems or larger successful commercial programs decades long, almost everyone moves on, except the few, and that few remain constant regardless of the type of program.

As my model was pre-1900 personal karate I’ve been most successful. All of my students would not be in another program, money being the major reason. I only take adults who are interested in what I teach, if they want something else I direct them there, such as anyone wanting Uechi I would direct to Buzz Durkin. When I have those with pervious training, especially black belts, I do my best to show them how different my progam is from what they’re used to. Half the time they don’t return, the other half the time they find something of interest and say. My average adult training length over the past 25 years exceeds 15 years per student to date, with my seniors 27 years into their own training.

My feeling is anyone importing a new art, starting small and working their student population with sound business practices (even for non-profit programs) can make their nitch into the current scene. I think this will be the case regardless of the version of an art being taught. I one comes to challenge it’s too much a case of ‘poisoning the wells’ to believe they would be unaware of that which they were challenging.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Quote:
On the other hand would the Okinawan’s even try instead preferring to keep what they have to themselves?


Considering history, they'd be the first to line up and make a go of it.


Though not the first karateka to hit our shores, Tsutomu Ohshima started the Caltech Karate Club in 1957.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:16 pm 
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Mike,

That's an interesting question. In the 20's and 30's the Okinawan's had a vested interesting in becoming a stronger part of the Japanese empire, hence the motivation for sharing karate.

If the timing wasn't until today that the Japanese were beginning the export, I'm not sure Okinawa would do it again. It would depend on many factors including historical precedent, and I just proposed one alternate time line. If the USA was still ocupying Okinawa in the test timeline, do you think there would be incentive enough to share it for money. Many of Okinawa's decisions today are made for their own purposes and not maximization of cash flow (one incentive), such as stopping sparring at their world wide torunaments.

Remember if Karate was just being exported there would not be an entire world of practicioners of every sort.

I suppose it all depends on the circumstances.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:22 am 
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But here quoting some interesting views
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from day one the message remains the same , it is not what you train you train but the way you train it .

not what you train but what you train for .

It is never the answers but the questions .

there are karateka that pursue the martial , there are karateka that can fight

arts arent better or worse , they train better or worse .

real skill will always be real skill . Smoke and mirrors , smoke and mirrors ......

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 Post subject: How about this
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:49 am 
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Quote:
Uechi can be trained with all the attributes of Mauy Thai .

Uechi can be trained all the flow/positon and tactile of FMA and the southern chinese arts .

Uechi can be trained with all the in close dirty fighting of CQB , military combatives , RBSD , SPEAR etc etc

the difference is not the style but the training .

In a PC World , when catering to all , sometimes the fringes will get pushed aside , sometimes the message is too unpleasant to hear , we dont want the dirty truth .

There will be effective folks doing effective karate , It may not fit many pre-conceptions of what karate is , but thats neither here nor there .

there are better and worse ways to train period , it depends on goals , but if you want karate to be a fighting art or not it comes down to the approach , and the value you place in doing things a certain way ..

And it can compete with any art when practiced with such a focus .


:)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:06 am 
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The problems Karate faces run much deeper than the effective practioner here and there upholding what karate should be .In general its weakened ,the rot as set in as a fighting art .

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:56 pm 
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maxwell ainley wrote:
The problems Karate faces run much deeper than the effective practioner here and there upholding what karate should be .In general its weakened ,the rot as set in as a fighting art .


I think that's the key right there Max. Karate is no longer even thought of as a fighting art, so that rot just continues to grow. Things such the development of mind, body & spirit and the discipline needed to do karate have become the driving force and goals of karate instead of being the supports that allow us to do karate (the fighting art).

Van,
I agree with your post 100%, though these days I think the karate as fighting art crowd are now the fringe getting pushed aside.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Very true, Max_ Mike.

The real problem seems to be the way we train and teach it as students and teachers as outlined in the quotes.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:26 pm 
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A few years ago a pro fighter [boxer] who converted to mma , who is also a friend bye the way .veiwed my uechi in his gym ,he thought it looked daft untill we sparred ,and he ended up rolling over on the floor .My point is it did not look effective ,his words summed it up "until you get on the receiving end ".

Obviously he was not familiar with the fighting concepts ,he had deceived himself .

My point is;only actual fights acid test our concepts that are supposed to be of a fighting nature ,my next point is thinking my karate is effective when it is not [honesty is needed,or saying ok its not the best but it will do .
Or thinking you are invincible ,or hiding behind the reputation of what karate was ;a deadly fighting art ,I don't know if I am heading back to dojo storming ,to inject some spirit back into a luke warm general sitution .

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:53 pm 
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Every one of us is different. Although Uechi-ryu has the potential for being a very effective fighting system, I still believe much of the effectiveness lies with the "heart" of the individual.

Obviously you have lots of "heart"! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:44 pm 
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Victor Smith wrote:
Mike,
That's an interesting question. In the 20's and 30's the Okinawan's had a vested interesting in becoming a stronger part of the Japanese empire, hence the motivation for sharing karate.


I don't know Victor, what makes the middle 20's different? Looking at history we had Japan kicking booty in the First Russo–Japanese War, The Boxer Rebellion, The Second Sino-Japanese War and WWI. They were already a very, very powerful empire that was very cutting edge militarily and the most powerful single player in Asia. Why not get in good with Japan earlier?

I also have to wonder if karate moved to the public schools and then "shared" with Japan because it was incredibly popular on Okinawa, or was it actually a brilliant move to save a dying art? By today's standards the best karate masters didn't teach more than a handful of students at a time and maybe that number was dwindling. Sometime around the 20's karate styles suddenly started sporting names, holding public demonstrations, and working on getting accepted for use by police and military. I think the Okinawan karate practitioners had as their vested interest in sharing their arts was the survival of something they held dear.

FWIW Kentsu Yabu did karate exhibitions in Hawaii and Los Angeles around 1920.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Hi Mike,

Why did Okinawa not try earlier than the 20's and 30's to get closer to Japan, perhaps it was just the confluence of events. Both the interest of the Crown Prince and that of Kano Sensei made it possible for Funakoshi to begin down that road, and develop an interest for many of the rest to use.

Why consider karate a dying art, it was really just becoming public. From the beginnings of teaching in the schools, new topics of interest were being discussed such as creating a more standardized set of beginning forms with two different attempts in the 30's.

The Okinawan disporia created interest to bring instructors to Hawaii too, but not to consciously share with the Hawaiians' or Americans.

Unfortunately the available literature has too many gaps to really undestand what was happening. Part of me really thinks we should let the Okinawans define thier history, and perhaps the recently published Okinawan karate encyclopedia will do just that, or perhaps not. We must wait till it's available in English in any case. That just leaves us with a scattering of accounts in any case, which is hard to prove anything concretely.

We do know WWII brought Okinawan karate to a standstill. Many of the senior instructors perished during the war and/or the invasion itself. The survivors had to re-construct where they were after the war and move on.

Interesting the one Okinawan community which was uninvolved in the war was that in South America (ie. Brazil, Argentina and otheres), with a unbroken line of karate study and ties to the past. Much of this is unavailable to us.

So much of what happens on Okinawa is never shared. For example in the mid 80's a group of Okinawan school teachers and karate-ka developed a school karate phys ed program, and developed a kata, Kyozai, to use in that program. This was not tied to a style, but it's extremely rare that any know of this because Okinawa isn't necessarily exporting what is happening.

interesting,

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