Chinna,Kyusho,Tuite discussion or how to makeUtube friends

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Chinna,Kyusho,Tuite discussion or how to makeUtube friends

Postby Kuma-de » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:28 pm

Many of you may be aware that I have a version of Hakutsuru on my youtubbies page

Recently, I was visited by a 23 y.o karate-ka (migueyannette) who said that I had left a response on his Sensei's u-tube video of Hakutusuru that he did not agree with:

My Statement was;

* The true Hakutsuru should flow. There is no grunting and screaming. The kata should be elegant not bombastic like this one.

NewEnglandBudo 1 month ago

He then asked me if I taught tuite, kyusho-jutsu, and Chin Na? And referred me to this video as a representation of how they do "real Tuite, etc." in their dojo:

Anyone looking for an interesting read follow the link of Hakutsuru above.
Jim Prouty
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Postby MikeK » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:29 am

In regards to the last video, it was excellent performance art. I really enjoyed it but it sure wasn't close to how anything is done in the real world.
I have Javier Martinez's books and thought they were pretty interesting.
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Postby Victor Smith » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:43 pm


Just for background, the gentleman you’ve been sparring with is obviously attached to the Isshinryu taught by Javier Martinez in Puerto Rico.

The Wansu ‘bunkai’ is the same Martinez Sensei described in his book on Wansu years ago, and that performer is credited in the same lineage. The bunkai is a result of his personal research, somewhat different from what I believe most in Isshinryu utilize. I don’t see that is as bad or good, just is their subsidiary training appropriate to make it work. The demonstration of course is following contemporary international kata standards. I presume their ‘Hakutsuru’ presentation is also focused on the same stanrards.

As far as that gentleman’s mix of Chinna,Kyusho,Tuite that is also the way Martinez Sensei used the terms in his book on ‘Tuite’. At best your correspondent is following a training lingeage.

Perhaps it is not accurate ‘historically’ but once someone writes something and teaches something in that lingeage it often becomes truth. So I guess you’ve been corresponding to a true believer.

I’ve been tracking ‘Hakutsuru’ since it first made it’s appearance in the magazines. Not because I lust after it, but to try and understand it’s claims.

I have a copy of the video showing Soken Hohen performing Hakutsuru, but of all the different Okinawan versions I’ve seen, I consider the Matayoshi Shimpo performing Okaku the best. Another friend in Cambridge who trained with Matayoshi Sensei has a performance of this form almost identical.

My only other direct brush with Hakutsuru came indirectly because Azem Sensei was teaching Hakutsuru no Kata at a nearby school (this was one of Azem’s students demonstrating the kata) close to 20 years ago. One of those students chose to switch to my program and in turn taught me this form. I worked it for maybe a decade be fore I set it aside. The notes he shared with me was this was taught to Azem on Okinawa by Soken Sensei.

Of course I haven’t studied on Okinawa, and in any case any form can be judged on its own merits.

Some thoughts,
Victor Smith
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Postby Kuma-de » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:02 am

Hey Victor-san, Finally back:

"The version we do is a variation of McCarthy Sensei's. I too have placed mine in a box and haven't dusted it off in a while. Thus Patrick Donahue's performance on my channel

I believe that I may have been at that seminar where Tom did Sali's version of Hakutsuru net to the Cumberland Farms?

Here is McCarthy Sensei's version done by someone in his org.

I have no problem talking to the kid but he is exploding arrogance all over my computer screen.

He uses out fad words that Dillman, et all used- kyusho, tui'te (Ti or Te) Chin na, etc. I gave him a list of what I teach in kata, perhaps he will learn something.

Lastly, he has gone around to every Hakustsuru kata that he could find and pulled the same stunt."

Finally, after holding him down & pulling his teeth that I got him to admit after watching a few of my student's videos:

@NewEnglandBudo Found it. Love it. It is great to see martial artist who knows what they are doing. We do a lot of Techniques like that with Kyoshi Javier Martinez in PR. We also apply bunkai like that in Katas. Sensei I apologize for any comment that in any way was disrespectful to you. I confess to you that I love our discussion and arguments about martial arts. God Bless You thanks for your time.

My reply after sending him some pain killers for his jaw that is lacking any teeth:

@migueyannette Finally, I am happy that you found it. Jose Senpai posted above and I sent him a private message. I do not mind being challenged about knowledge, history and preserving the old ways of karate. But we diverge a bit with the tournament centered karate of today. So much is being lost for the sake of competition.

Vaya con Dios y Feliz Ano Nuevo...
Jim Prouty
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