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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:43 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx2AxYxgqRA

Face first into a stanchion. Broken neck/concussion
Intentional? Likely so (watch how he takes control of his opponent) however the design of the hockey arena in my opinion no longer suits the need. Young men much larger, faster and with a win at all cost mindset that we demand for entertainment.

Intent...unlikely he intended to cause such devastation. Can anyone put themselves in Chara`s mind for those short few seconds?

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 Post subject: Nice airbag
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Image

The forces...wow!
Do you think he took advantage of that post 8O

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:24 am 
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I took several looks at the critical parts of this film.

My first reaction is... Ouch!!!!!

It happens so fast (in real time) that it's difficult to figure out if it was intentional. These kinds of body slams happen all the time. But even if a split second decision... I recall many-on-one sparring situations where a "wicked opportunity" presented itself per chance, and I took it before I knew I had taken it. It was as if years of operant conditioning made me take the opening, and it just happened. Only after the fact did I marvel at how the situation came and went in a flash.

So it could have been intentional. But we'll never know for sure unless Chara admits it years later.

Pacioretty is very, very lucky he had a team of experts on him in a flash. With any luck, he may walk again. That kind of scenario is the very thing that can make a quadriplegic of someone in an instant - especially if the person doesn't get IMMEDIATE expert medical attention.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:08 am 
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SI.com wrote:

Pacioretty’s words from Montreal General Hospital (relayed through TSN’s Bob McKenzie in the video embedded above and this story) are all one needs to know about this failure: “I am upset and disgusted that the league didn’t think enough of (the hit) to suspend him,” Pacioretty said. “I’m not mad for myself, I’m mad because if other players see a hit like that and think it’s okay, they won’t be suspended, then other players will get hurt like I got hurt….I believe he was trying to guide my head into the turnbuckle. We all know where the turnbuckle is. It wasn’t a head shot like a lot of head shots we see, but I do feel he targeted my head into the turnbuckle.”

All the apologists and all the rationales being used to justify the league’s poor judgment can’t change this fact: Zdeno Chara broke the rules and injured a player doing so. What he did was, at minimum, reckless. Time and time again, we’ve seen decisions by the NHL where Colin Campbell or Mike Murphy suspend a player and in their statement say, “Although Player X didn’t intend to injure Player Y, his actions were reckless. Players have to be responsible for their conduct on the ice.” Too often, those suspensions are too lenient, but the player is suspended nevertheless. For some unexplained reason, even that logic didn’t apply this time.
- NHL out of touch on Pacioretty-Chara decision


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:16 am 
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Just what are the rules that Chara allegedly broke? Apparently NHL management doesn't think he broke any.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:53 am 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
Just what are the rules that Chara allegedly broke? Apparently NHL management doesn't think he broke any.

- Bill

Currently the police are conducting an investigation and IMO very unlikely they will have any evidence that charges can be pursued. The design of the rink and rules of the game should sink any criminal charges. But as Bill pointed out opportunity presented itself during a critical time of "attack" (a check is an attack ). Zdeno Chara did not break any rules of the game. However, will he be haunted by second guessing his intent in that fleeting moment?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:31 am 
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CANDANeh wrote:

The design of the rink and rules of the game...

That's my first thought. Take a look at the critical point of impact in the check.

Image

If the rink had plexiglass all the way around, this would have been a non-issue. The torque on the neck is happening only because of the unique design of the rink at that exact point. What should have been a relatively safe impact turns out to be a nearly lethal one at an angle orthogonal to what it should have been if the rink was properly designed.

The second thing that comes to mind is one of the nastiest techniques of the Uechi system - hidden to most who practice it. Theoretically it should do just as much damage, but... that's theory. Here's a slightly different scenario which leads to what essentially is a nearly identical outcome.

I hurt just looking at it.

- Bill

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:00 am 
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Quote:
hidden to most who practice it.


No one taking Bill`s bait :lol:

When I watched the unfortunate event one of the first things I thought about was: Image

This is as close to the image in my mind. Knee to the head is one thing BUT add the guiding of the head (attacker in initial stage of shooting) with the forearm with the momentum of your forward movement and crank/twist to the head...simply evil.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:35 am 
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CANDANeh wrote:

No one taking Bill`s bait :lol:

I'm losing my touch, Leo! ;)
CANDANeh wrote:

When I watched the unfortunate event one of the first things I thought about was: Image

This is as close to the image in my mind. Knee to the head is one thing BUT add the guiding of the head (attacker in initial stage of shooting) with the forearm with the momentum of your forward movement and crank/twist to the head...simply evil.

You're getting the idea. It wasn't my immediate application thought, but that works as well. Principles are principles, and can be manifested many ways.

It's one thing to get knocked out. I can teach you how to do that if you're a big mofo. But for the average person, maybe not so much without a lot of training.

But to break a neck? Ahh... That takes strength, right? Or maybe... Just maybe we need to understand Newton's laws at an intuitive level.
  • First law: Every body remains in a state of constant velocity unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force. This means that in the absence of a non-zero net force, the center of mass of a body either remains at rest, or moves at a constant velocity.
  • Second law: A body of mass m subject to a net force F undergoes an acceleration a that has the same direction as the force and a magnitude that is directly proportional to the force and inversely proportional to the mass, i.e., F = ma. Alternatively, the total force applied on a body is equal to the time derivative of linear momentum of the body.
  • Third law: The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear. This means that whenever a first body exerts a force F on a second body, the second body exerts a force −F on the first body. F and −F are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. This law is sometimes referred to as the action-reaction law, with F called the "action" and −F the "reaction". The action and the reaction are simultaneous.

Well alrighty then...

We have a bigger mass, and a smaller mass, and a thingie connecting the two of them. How do I use Newton's laws to break a neck like a pencil?

Don't think it's even theoretically possible? Look again. Focus in on 0:45 - 0:50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx2AxYxgqRA

Then you need to think out of the box - applying the same principles as articulated in Newton's laws. Oh and just to infuriate the heck out of the rookies, it actually is in Sanchin. But to use three words that strike fear in the hearts of dads every Christmas Eve, some assembly required. ;)

I generally don't teach these kinds of things online. But I readily discuss them in class.

- Bill

Source for Newton's laws: Wikipedia


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:02 am 
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The "scoop" in Konchin/Sanseiryu a neck break...The " Hawk chases sparrow" in Seichen...A neck break. The circular strikes in Seisan...Neck break. A basic principle does exist.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:06 am 
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Quote:
I generally don't teach these kinds of things online. But I readily discuss them in class.

No worries as information not the essential ingredient.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:16 am 
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0.50 is the WOW! Body goes neck does not.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:29 am 
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CANDANeh wrote:
Body goes neck does not.

And this is the key. It is the same as a hanging, the effect of which is reliant on Newton's laws:
- 2nd Law: Force (F) is generated as the product of the person's mass (m) times the acceleration of gravity (a)
- 3rd Law: until the rope tightens, creating an opposing upward force (reaction, or -F) on the head
- 1st Law: while the rest of the body tries to maintain its downward velocity (also the 3rd Law's action F)
The forces of that action-reaction are centered on the neck, and the result is often a broken neck, particularly in heavier people (and those are the fortunate ones, for if the neck does not break then death is slower by strangulation). In Pacioretty's case, the post created the reaction on the head while the rest of his body tried continuing with the original action.

In theory, our techniques that seem to simultaneously attack high (head) and low (body) could be performed in ways that have the same result. The positioning and movements of Chara's body, legs, and arms in 0:48-0:50 could have come straight out of a particular part of Sanchin. However we would have to modify things a bit to get the same Newtonian outcome without any assist from objects in the environment such as posts in hockey rink walls. The real trick of course is being able to accomplish that if needed when you cannot truly train for it ahead of time.

Regardless of whether the incident was intentional or not, I'm guessing Chara has a bullseye on him now,particularly the next time he plays Pacioretty's team.

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 Post subject: "Got to pay the hangman"
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:30 pm 
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The forces of that action-reaction are centered on the neck, and the result is often a broken neck, particularly in heavier people (and those are the fortunate ones, for if the neck does not break then death is slower by strangulation).


The positioning of the noose is also a key factor. One must tip the hangman 8O

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:01 pm 
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You guys are very close to the complete picture.

Leo wrote:

0.50 is the WOW! Body goes neck does not.

Ooooo.... almost!

:multi:

Read again what I wrote!
Bill wrote:

We have a bigger mass, and a smaller mass, and a thingie connecting the two of them.

Glen's hangman anecdote gets at it as well. And here is where you notice the missing ingredient, Leo.

Leo wrote:

One must tip the hangman

Re-word your first statement, Leo, and you have the principle.

Think the principle backwards, and you have the martial principle.

- Bill


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