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 Post subject: Ultimate Gun Defense
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:31 am 
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Location: Central Kentucky
I recently spent 15 or 20 minutes of one of my classes teaching some of the most important Firearm defenses, one can learn. The techniques can be easily mastered, and work in some of the most dangerous firearms situations most of us will encounter. Usually I'm very careful about the way I teach weapon disarms, because of the seriousness of the subject. That was not the case with these techniques. I must say, I'm quite the expert!
But, then again I should be. When I was in College I took a hunter safety course with the KY Dept. of Fish and Wildlife, and then went on to become an Course Instructor. I also became certified by the NRA as a Whitetail Deer Hunter instructor. Besides that I've been a sportsman all my life.

I remember when I was taking public speaking in college, one of my teachers said some of the most persuasive speeches involve subjects that are personal and emotional.
So here goes......hope everyone's paying attention.

If only my brother's friend had known the ultimate gun defense, I have no doubt he could have stopped the gunman that took my brother's life February 10th 2011. :cry:

Some defenses, as we all know, require us to be proactive. If you hesitate it's too late! As was the case that day. By the time my brother's friend realized the gunman's intent, it was too late. The gunman was younger and faster than my brother's friend. And, as is the case with many that take another's life he was beyond reason, my brother's friend couldn't talk him out of it. The gunman had the compassion (or Cruelty??), to allow my brother to call his Mother and say goodbye. But despite my brother's tears, and my Mother begging the gunman to put the gun down.
The gunman did what he "had" to do. My brother Chris at 27yrs old, hung up the phone, and pulled the trigger. :(

A friend of mine at work was recently discussing Failure Mode and Effects Analysis. Online, it is defined as follows:

Preventing Disaster with FMEA

The tool you use to analyze and prevent disasters is the FMEA - Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (a template in the QI Macros). You can use it to analyze a product (car, x-ray, MRI), part (car door), or process (part stamping process or elective surgery).

* Designing a product or part uses a DFMEA.
* Analyzing a process uses a PFMEA.

When you've got a product or a process that can affect human life (e.g., radiology or amputation in a hospital), you want to anticipate all of the ways that the product or process could go wrong and affect your customer. The automobile and airline industries do this routinely to mitigate and prevent potential problems.

_______________________________________________
I thought about this and what the FMEA would determine as the cause(s) for this tragedy. Of course there are all the classic signs that are easily seen in hindsight. A recent breakup, his lifelong need for attention, a close friend that committed suicide, a lower than average mental capacity (not quite MR, not quite "normal"), calling those close to him to say he loved them, etc., etc.
Chris was always a happy go lucky kinda guy, and if he got upset it didn't last long. So one thing really stood out to me. Eureka!! If only there hadn't been a loaded gun in easy reach. Now his friend being an older gentleman, probably didn't have many kids in the house, so who would have thought there would be a problem. Who would have thought his friend, an adult, would just grab it, and do what he did. THAT'S JUST IT. YOU REALLY NEVER KNOW.

So back to the Ultimate Gun Defenses. Most of these can probably be found online, at your state fish and wildlife or natural resource offices websites, the NRA website, heck new guns even come with many of these rules.

Here's what I taught my students the other day.

1. Guns are always loaded.

2. Never point a gun at something you do not want to shoot.

3. Kids if you find a gun, tell an adult.

4. If one of your friends picks up a gun tell an adult.

5. The safety on a firearm is a mechanical device that can and sometimes does fail.

6. Most local law enforcement offices provide free gun locks to citizens.

7. STORE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS, AND KEEP THE AMMO IN A LOCKED BOX! :multi:
(Because you just never know who's gonna pick up a gun and do harm to themselves or others - intentional or otherwise.)

I may have left a few things out, and I realize there may be special situations for LEOs or in a combat/military situation. However, I hope this is something you will share with your students and think about yourselves. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:26 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
This is obviously a very tough subject for you. And there's a whole lot going on here. To say the least, I am very sorry for your loss. You must be devastated.

I think the most important thing to remember is that firearms should not be around mentally unstable people. God knows we've seen enough high profile cases in that regard. The numbers may not be all that remarkable, but they are headline-grabbing.

I think there is one debatable points here.
KentuckyUechi wrote:

7. STORE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS, AND KEEP THE AMMO IN A LOCKED BOX! #Milti
(Because you just never know who's gonna pick up a gun and do harm to themselves or others - intentional or otherwise.)

Thanks to a student of mine who was NRA certified in rifle, pistol, and shotgun, I was the beneficiary of many, many hours of firearms training. We didn't just learn to fire a weapon at a target. We actually had scenario training with live ammo. It even for instance involved being slammed down from behind (a la ushiro ate) and being required still to put several rounds in a target before you got up again.

I routinely store at least one firearm WITH ammo in my home. I intentionally make it so I can get to it within seconds of someone breaking into my home. Yes, I've practiced getting to it again and again in my training.

The pistols in question are in locked boxes with their loaded magazines right by them. Nobody can open the lockboxes besides yours truly. However I can open them without fine motor coordination - in a fraction of a second.

If you aren't going to make a Glock available for self-defense during a home invasion, then you truly do not need a firearm. Any situation that requires extensive planning should be about getting some Bambi for supper, and not about killing Joe because he slept with your girlfriend.

I agree with your other rules. Most importantly, one should not have firearms in the home without extensive training for all who have access to them. All the safeties and gun locks in the world won't protect idiots and unstable people from themselves. And for what it's worth... Glocks don't even have a safety on them. There's a very good reason for that. When it comes to using a firearm when you most need it, simple is always better.

I also highly recommend getting a concealed carry permit if it's available in your state. As a firearms instructor told me, it'll stop a lot of "issues" when you're transporting a firearm from point A to point B. And there's extensive training involved before said permit is awarded.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Not your average joe.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Quote:
I realize there may be special situations for LEOs or in a combat/military situation.




Though you may not be a LEO or active military, your training and serious analysis of how to keep your firearm accessible to you. Yet inaccessible to others, is the exception, even among those trained in firearms use.


Quote:
The pistols in question are in locked boxes with their loaded magazines right by them. Nobody can open the lockboxes besides yours truly. However I can open them without fine motor coordination - in a fraction of a second.


You aren't the average Joe. :wink: That is commendable.

Quote:
Any situation that requires extensive planning should be about getting some Bambi for supper


The majority of gun owners I know, keep guns for just that reason. And more importantly the extent of their training is for such a purpose. Therefore when they decide to keep a handgun for plinking or self defense purposes -they apply the same basic gun handling principles. They often don't think about how to effectively keep the gun accessible to them and safe for others at the same time as you did. Instead they think...."oh, wait a minute, if I need this for self defense, I better keep it loaded and close at hand. I"ll just put it on the nitestand!"

This is an overgeneralization, and stereotyping, but you get the picture.

In my opinion, when teaching these rules (especially to kids), it's probably better to keep it simple. You can always discuss alternatives, and more advanced "techniques" after class.

Thanks for the input Bill.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Bert,

So sorry for your and your family's loss. :(

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Last edited by Glenn on Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Thanks Glenn

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Currently all my firearms are in a safe.
Inside the safe is a second, smaller safe. Different combination. Inside the smaller safe is a pistol and two fully loaded magazines, neither inside the firearm, which is stored in the open position, where you can see that there is no round in the chamber.

All other ammunition is kept in another locked container elsewhere. This works for me. I live in a highly secure neighborhood, and yet there are bozos around who do stupid things, so I want to be able to access my firearm and have it be ready if need be in a reasonably quick manner. We also have black bear in housing on occasion, and lots of small children running around at all hours of the day (with 24 hours of daylight in the summer, some parents let their kids play at all hours).

I never show my firearms to a stranger, and my kids know the ins and outs of the rifles and shotgun, and enough about the handgun; they also know they can see them at any time they ask me, and in my presence they will be allowed to handle them with no ammo (See Ayoob's Gunproofing Your Children). I take my boys to the range on a semi-frequent basis, one at a time. My little girl is getting to be a crack shot with a BB gun. She'll be moving up soon. Two people outside my family have handled my firearms. My neighbors know I have them, which is just as well: they all have firearms too.

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 Post subject: Hmmmm
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:31 pm 
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I can understand your concern over safety Jason, but do you feel your guns are readily accessible in a stressful and real emergency. . . like a break-in?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:08 pm 
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That's assuming that you can be ready to go by the time you register the break in. If it is a break in.

When you look at it realistically a break in is less likely than an accidental shooting in a house with kids. If I'm going for safety and peace of mind I'll go with securing my guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Hmmmm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:51 am 
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gmattson wrote:
I can understand your concern over safety Jason, but do you feel your guns are readily accessible in a stressful and real emergency. . . like a break-in?


I'm saving up for a bedside gunvault that meets my expectations. In the meantime, home security is fairly certain, given the neighborhood I live in. Step outside the base gate, and it's a whole 'other' ball of wax.

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 Post subject: For what it's worth.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:21 am 
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I don't currently own a handgun, used to have several. I always loved the single six, blackhawk, and vaquero made by Ruger. Great accuracy. I had a single six with a 9 1/2"barrel that I could literally split the edge of a playing card, or shoot the hearts off the corners of the queen of hearts @ 25 yds. A couple of years ago, I bought a Smith and Wesson 22 auto target pistol. I shot it a few times, but soon realized, for the most part, I had no use for it, then sold it. Maybe I'll get another someday, but Tom Selleck summed up my current feelings best in Quigley Down Under.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0lLf7ep ... 72807F9336

I love that quote. My point...... none really. Just rambling :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:27 am 
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Simply awful, Bert, I am sorry. No easy answers.

1. A police officer I knew [distant family cousin] was basically antigun…but did sleep with his service revolver on his nigh table fully loaded and ready to go in case of a home invasion[they happen in an instant, in the middle of the night, waking you up in terror, totally dysfunctional for a short time, and in the grip of the chemical cocktail that prevents you from 'manipulating' the 'easy lock' you think you have to access your 'safe gun'….that is…if you even remember you have a gun at that moment…much like some policemen forget they have back up guns under stressful situations] …

So my distant cousin, awakens suddenly by a shot in the dark in his bedroom…turns on the light and finds that his wife next to him had blown her brains out with his service revolver.

In the movie Quigley down under…Quigley didn't have much use for a gun 'until he did' ….As to 'use' it must be defined in one's mind:

If you target shoot, then you have a 'use' for the gun.

If you are a collector…then you have a 'use' for the guns you buy and keep.

A gun, for many, is another form of Life insurance policy, which is also 'useless' until needed.

If three 'sickos' kick in your front door in the middle of the night and precipitously climb the stairs to your bedroom getting a hold of your wife and kids, intent on raping and torture before killing…while making you watch…you will never forgive yourself for having nothing but just 'your dick in your hands' at that moment…all you could muster at that moment of terror.

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 Post subject: Good points
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:59 pm 
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Quote:
Simply awful, Bert, I am sorry.


Thanks Van.

Quote:
In the movie Quigley down under…Quigley didn't have much use for a gun 'until he did'


Very true. One detail, we mustn't forget was he said "he didn't have much use for a handgun." For the "work" he did, he chose the Rifle as his firearm of choice. Kinda like your fondness of the M-1 Garand. :wink:

I know, not the easiest thing to wield in the house. Here's a thought, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on. I once heard someone state that the best home defense weapon was a shotgun, loaded with low brass, #8 or 9 shot. Why? It's devastating from a few feet away / across the room, but will lose velocity very quickly. Much more likely to be stopped by a couple of sheets of drywall, than say a 9mm slug. Just in case your kids are in the bedroom behind the perp.

Quote:
If you target shoot, then you have a 'use' for the gun.

If you are a collector…then you have a 'use' for the guns you buy and keep.

A gun, for many, is another form of Life insurance policy, which is also 'useless' until needed.


I agree. And, I may again have a use for a handgun, just not recently.

Quote:
If three 'sickos' kick in your front door in the middle of the night

That would definitely sock! 8O Good point.

The chances of them doing so unarmed, is probably kinda low, unfortunately. So the odds, still wouldn't be the best neccessarily. But, don't think I wouldn't let em see the flame blossoming from my Benelli, as I went down :wink: .

Provided my early warning system, (our 80lb. Lab), goes off quickly enough, for me to get to it and the ammo.

Which yes is in a locked box. Like Mike K said
Quote:
If I'm going for safety and peace of mind I'll go with securing my guns.
"

My personal experience, in the particular area I live, has been that statistically, accidental shootings, domestic disputes, etc. far outnumber home invasion deaths.

I hope this doesn't sound like a rebuttal, it's just more of my thoughts on the subject.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:58 am 
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Hi Bert,

Good discussion, you make excellent points _ I'd like to also hear from Panther on this subject matter…it would be very educational.

Something else I wrote years ago you may not have seen.

> In Rome, Italy, a first cousin of mine lived with his 'Russian wife' and their two daughters in a beautiful old home his father had left him.
The house was in the Roman suburbs, a bit isolated, a very large home with walls in the garden of construction going back to the Roman Empire from historical investigation. The long walkway/driveway was gated but the gate remained mostly unlocked.

One day upon visiting him. I had bad feelings about the place and did not like the surroundings. So I asked him if he had any home defense guns. He did not because his wife hated guns. OK. So I asked him what he would do if his home were invaded. "Aw...we don't worry about those things" OK…

And so two years later three thugs appeared in the walkway, his wife was feeding the dogs on a leash, and while she ran in fear into the house she dropped the dog food.

My cousin ran behind her, but slipped on the dropped food, losing precious time before being able to get in the house and lock the front door.

So the thugs caught up with them and one of them stuck his foot in the door preventing it from closing while all three of them shouldered it in.

In abject terror, my cousin, his wife and their 11 years old daughter, Marina, tried to desperately 'push back' to lock the door…but could not.

My cousin's mind was desperate in the terrible knowledge he had no weapons nearby of any kind to try and defend his family.

Marina took it upon herself to grab an umbrella near the door and try and poke it through the door opening to fend off the invaders.

One of them stuck a pistol in the opening and blew Marina's brains out.

Lucky for the rest of the family, the killer and his buddies ran instead of going in and finish all witnesses.

They were never caught….my cousin moved out to different habitations through the years…but to this day…no matter how many times he changes is unlisted phone number….at the anniversary of his daughter's killing….

He gets s a phone call _ "Remember that you have another daughter" _ click.

After the killing he got a pistol license and keeps one always at his side.

And then his wife left him and went back to Russia, blaming him for the death of their daughter.

The stuff nightmares are made of. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:41 am 
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Quote:
Very true. One detail, we mustn't forget was he said "he didn't have much use for a hand gun." For the "work" he did, he chose the Rifle as his firearm of choice. Kinda like your fondness of the M-1 Garand.


Precisely, Bert. For his work he mostly needed his 'Sharps' [I have a couple of those made by Shiloh Sharps of Montana, the same company that made Quigley's rifle for the movie.] yet, it was just a movie. In real life, someone like Quigley would certainly have carried a six gun as back up.

But my Garand shall always remain my 'Battle rifle' as I got married to it, even slept with it in my bunk during my Infantry days. I can still take apart piece by piece and put it back together in the dark. My 'back up' still is the 1911…the Garand's 'sister' _
Quote:
I once heard someone state that the best home defense weapon was a shotgun, loaded with low brass, #8 or 9 shot. Why? It's devastating from a few feet away / across the room, but will lose velocity very quickly.


Yes and no. Mas Ayoob feels that a pistol is the best house gun for easy maneuvering ….also leaving the other hand free for multitasking necessary to survival.

The #8/9 shot will stop someone at close range but will not over penetrate putting your kids at risk in other rooms.

Shotguns with a full stock are also difficult to negotiate corners with and can be grabbed easily by an intruder as you round a corner.

I like this one _

Image

The Mossberg Tactical cruiser with the breaching tube…those nasty teeth at the end can be used as a bayonet.

Of course the 'breaching end' is also useful to let gas escape safely when placing the barrel up against a door lock and shooting to blow it open.

The pistol grip design makes somewhat easier to navigate corners.

Again…you need a gun as a life insurance policy if you are so inclined. Many people don't feel the need, fear the gun in the house more than a possible invasion, and some would rather die than defend themselves and go to prison to become Bubba's girlfriend.

To each his own. The nightmares will be there with or without the gun.

Most here speak in theory….I speak from family experience in the terror of violence and death. Unless it happens to 'you' it will not be truly understood.

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 Post subject: I like that Vann...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:44 am 
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The MSG (Marine Security Guards that guard the Embassies) use a Shotgun very similar to that.. May even be the same model. As I grow older and my eyesight grows worse, it seems more pratical for home defense all the time.. Not to mention that if you had to defend at 3-4 am that it will be dark, you would be disoriented, adrenaline, fear, shock could all throw of a well aimed shot... I vote for the Mossberg


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