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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Could you have seen this coming? Would you have fared any better? Woulda coulda shoulda.... we get to be Monday Morning Quarterback. Apply your 20/20 hindsight and see what you can come up with.

Also, what would you have done if you witnessed this? Would the bad guys have escaped?

FWIW - I can tell you with near 100 percent certainty that they wouldn't have been in the presence of a do-nothing witness if I was around. My only trouble would have been figuring out whether it was more important to see that the perps ended up in jail or tend to the wounded. We Glasheens are not indifferent to crime, and intervening doesn't necessarily mean creating a scene for a new movie.

- Bill

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LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A San Francisco Giants fan who was beaten at Dodger Stadium after last week's opening game shows signs of brain damage and remains in critical condition, a doctor said Tuesday.

Meanwhile, detectives were looking into unconfirmed reports that the same suspects struck other Giants fans minutes before the attack that left Bryan Stow in a coma.

Stow, a 42-year-old paramedic and father of two from Santa Cruz, remained in critical but guarded condition at Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center. He suffered a severe skull fracture and bad bruising to his brain's frontal lobes, said Dr. Gabriel Zada, a neurosurgeon.

At one point, doctors had to remove the entire left side of his skull to ease pressure on his brain. The pressure is now normal but Stow remains in a coma from his injuries and from sedation to reduce his brain activity, Zada said.

"There is evidence of brain injury and dysfunction," Zada said.

It was too early to make a prognosis but such injuries can affect memory, thinking ability and even personality, Zada said.

"It's going to be a long recovery process," he said.

Stow was in a parking lot heading to a taxi stand after the Dodgers' 2-1 victory over the Giants on March 31 when two shaven-headed young men in Dodgers clothing began taunting and swearing at him and two other fans, who were all wearing Giants gear, police said.

Stow was punched in the back of the head. He fell down, bashing his head on the pavement, and was kicked before the attackers ran off.

They fled in a four-door sedan driven by a woman who had a boy with her, police said.

Composite sketches of the men have been released.

The City Council on Tuesday voted to offer a $50,000 reward for information leading to arrests. With previous offers from the Dodgers, Giants and others, that brings the total to $100,000.

Investigators had several leads and some evidence that was recovered at the scene, Detective Jose Carrillo said. He did not provide details.

He estimated that out of some 40,000 people who streamed into the parking lot after the game, at least 100 probably were near enough to see the attack and he urged them to contact police. It was too dark for video surveillance camera to provide clear images, he said.

Investigators also were looking into unconfirmed reports that Stow's attackers punched three or four young men in Giants gear only minutes before Stow was assaulted, Carrillo said.

Stow, an enthusiastic Giants fan, was attending his first game at Dodgers Stadium and had looked forward to the game all year, his first cousin, John Stow, said.

However, he may have had some worries after arriving.

"During the game, my wife received a text message from him ... He basically said he was scared inside the stadium," John Stow said, adding that his cousin did not usually make such comments lightly.

Stow's parents, two sisters and other relatives attended a news conference at the hospital.

John Stow, who wore a Giants hat and jersey, called the attackers thugs who should give themselves up and "have the courage to face the facts and face the book for what you've done here."

Family members also said they did not blame Dodger fans for the attack and had received prayers and good wishes from locals and people as far away as England.

"Though this has been a terrible tragedy done by cowardly people, it is reassuring to know that good people are speaking out and are appalled," John Stow said.

"We have no animosity toward the people of Los Angeles. We've been received with open arms and love," said a sister, Erin Collins.

Of the attackers, she said: "They weren't true Dodger fans."


- Sports Illustrated


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:41 pm 
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Bryan Stow

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Diagram of beating suspects

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- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:08 pm 
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I guess there's just a limited amount of information that a few sentences can convey. The way it came across to me, it seemed like people could see the verbal abuse, but the escalation to physical violence followed by the perps fleeing (in a getaway car, no less, with a "wheel man") may have been too quick for bystanders to react to effectively.

My guess is that, assuming I was too far away to be involved in the actual altercation, I would have tended to the victim and let the perps escape, since they might be armed. If I were right there by his side, I would have been part of it, I guess, so then it goes more to the first question--what I would do if it were me or the guy next to me being attacked. I'm not a street fighter or a cop or a prison guard or a bouncer or anything like that, and just having those two guys target me, let alone actually attack, would probably give me an adrenaline dump. But when the schit actually hits the fan, I think it would be hard to hit me in the back of the head. I'm thinking the victim might have turned his back on the perps, which I know I wouldn't have done. Perhaps he thought of it as "ignore them and maybe they'll go away" whereas they would take it as disrespect.

Another thing I wouldn't do, sorry to say, is wear the garb of a visiting team in any stadium. To be honest, I probably would not wear the garb of either team. I don't think I ever have in the past.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:00 am 
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I'm thinking the victim might have turned his back on the perps, which I know I wouldn't have done. Perhaps he thought of it as "ignore them and maybe they'll go away" whereas they would take it as disrespect.


Or one of them got behind him. But yeah, turning one's back on a group of low-lifes wouldn't be my first choice. Nor opening my mouth over people acting stupid.

It's a damned shame this happened to a paramedic who probably had a few more decades left to him in which to save untold lives.

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Another thing I wouldn't do, sorry to say, is wear the garb of a visiting team in any stadium. To be honest, I probably would not wear the garb of either team. I don't think I ever have in the past.


I like to wear the garb of teams not represented on the field/ice/whatever that day.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:43 am 
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Thanks for biting, guys. There's a lot of material here.

mhosea wrote:

I'm not a street fighter or a cop or a prison guard or a bouncer or anything like that, and just having those two guys target me, let alone actually attack, would probably give me an adrenaline dump. But when the schit actually hits the fan, I think it would be hard to hit me in the back of the head.

Ooo!!! Ooo!!! There's your segue, Van. Care to comment? ;)
mhosea wrote:

I'm thinking the victim might have turned his back on the perps, which I know I wouldn't have done. Perhaps he thought of it as "ignore them and maybe they'll go away" whereas they would take it as disrespect.

Would you care to put a label to what you're talking about? (Hint - it exists! ;))

- Bill


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 Post subject: I will first...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:57 am 
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First I agree Bill, and this is just more inspiration to train harder, tougher, and more in depth.. With that said, having been from a Street employment/ Owner? busboy background... The first thing you cover is your back.. At least have a trusted friend watching it when you can't.. I doubt seriously if he ever thought about something happening at all.. I think he was just what they said.. A victim of crime...And these guys aren't easy to keep on top of... But I think a good lesson to be taken from it... Expect the world is hard, and there are a$$holes out in it... :?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:41 pm 
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It's been very difficult getting what I consider to be a VERY IMPORTANT topic going due to the format changes. So I'm going to drag it along a little here and hope that some of our RBSD experts around here (Rory, Van...) can chime in.

Thanks so much to Mike, Jason, and Stevie for jumping in. You're creating some great discussion material - more than I could have imagined.

mhosea wrote:

I'm not a street fighter or a cop or a prison guard or a bouncer or anything like that, and just having those two guys target me, let alone actually attack, would probably give me an adrenaline dump. But when the schit actually hits the fan, I think it would be hard to hit me in the back of the head.

First... Apologies are in order to Mike in advance. This is a fantastic statement for discussion. I just hope Mike understands that I'm dissecting it for all our benefit.

Let's take a Seisan kata sequence where one turns to the east. After the turn/circle/kick (east) followed by the knee/bend-over/shoken, there's a very strange sequence. It goes like this:

  • Two more shokens in that bent-over posture done in a push-pull fashion like standard "karate punching."
  • Standing erect and facing east followed by a generic Sanchin thrust forward.
  • A turn to the south and another generic Sanchin thrust.
  • A turn to the north and another generic Sanchin thrust.

Now WTF was that???

Let's start with one paradigm shift. Instead of thinking of shoken two and three as two more hits on the bad guy (down and east), think instead of what your chambering motions are doing. They can indeed be elbow thrusts behind you. In other words as you're facing your opponent to the (touch range) east and finishing him off, his buddy jumps your back. You in turn get him off by doing first a right and then a left elbow into his ribs. Either or both will hit and dislodge him.

Those elbow thrusts are to the west. The subsequent Sanchin thrusts are to the (more distant) east, south, and then north. You have essentially cleared the deck and given yourself space. It's sort of like in basketball when you come down with a rebound and then swing your elbows around to keep the opposition from stealing the ball. Only in this case you're keeping them from stealing your life.

The truth of the matter is that an "adrenaline dump" or an extreme of neuro-hormonal stimulation is associated with a plethora of physiologic changes. It is true that it empowers us with enormous physical potential, albeit one driven primarily by gross motor movement. But there are many other changes, and it's important to know that they happen. There is tachypsychia, or the appearance of things happening in slow motion. There is auditory exclusion where the world around you can become strangely silent - even to your friends warning you to "Watch out!!!!" There is a dilation of the pupils, which creates excellent binocular vision - in a very narrow depth of field (particularly at night). And then there is also tunnel vision.

So... an "adrenaline dump" is going to keep the bad guy from sneaking up behind you and taking you out? Not so much; it does the exact opposite. Watch my sister's Great Danes hunt coyotes at the edge of the Santa Ana desert. Two of them never get in each other's way. They run away from each other and circle towards their prey. The one challenges, and induces an extreme response from the prey. The other comes up from behind for the easy kill. And I mean easy. Never heard it coming (auditory exclusion) and never saw it coming (tunnel vision). And if the coyote turns and runs, well... right into the jaws of the other predator.

The military teaches their members of special forces to stop and scan the horizon after every few steps when approaching the enemy. It becomes a ritual that they practice again and again and again.

Seisan is teaching us the same. We just need to understand what the heck that sequence is. And then it must become a programmed response when in the fog of battle. Always, always scan the horizon. Assume your back is vulnerable unless your buddy is protecting it.
AP wrote:

He basically said he was scared inside the stadium," John Stow said, adding that his cousin did not usually make such comments lightly.

The fear started there. It undoubtedly went up a notch when approached by the cursing thugs. And these two predators apparently knew exactly what they were doing. He never saw it coming.

Please, please don't assume your physiology is any different. Embrace the neuro-hormonal response, and learn what to do so you won't fall victim to its peculiarities.

And learn to recognize when you are being "interviewed." I have a long walk from my office to the parking garage in downtown Louisville. I am constantly approached by panhandlers - some of whom admit they just got released from prison. Whenever approached, I'm always, always checking my back. My "vision" immediately goes into peripheral mode (so to speak), and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. And I barely give the panhandler the time of day. It's just not worth it.

I also have learned to do the 360-degree rotation without missing a step. It is inspired by our tenshin motions in the Uechi hojoundo and Uechi Kanchin kata. I practice an use it often. When I hear footsteps behind me, I do a 360-degree turn while going forward that would make any basketball guard proud. If (s)he looks friendly I smile. If not... I know they are there and they know I know they are there. And that footwork sends a message. ;)

Don't get me wrong; I could be a victim as well. When I was in Louisville all of about 4 weeks, I was walking down Main Street late on a Saturday night and enjoying the night life. I was fascinated by this Russian Wolfhound on the other side of the road, and walked right into a 30-foot iron lamp post. Five stitches later, it was obvious that "it" could happen to me as well.

Light poles DO hit back!

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:23 pm 
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I was always taught (even as a young kid in my TKD days) If there are 2 aggressors, keep 1 between you and the other.. I have found that the grabbing and de centering the opponents balance taught in Uechi Ryu to be an excellent tool for accomplishing that..At Kadena, we had an inner tube (just a simple tire inner tube)hung to the wall.. We would practice reaching and grabbing it in a split second and just shaking it and ripping at it with our grip as ferociously as possible.. I can personally attest that Kiyohide Sensei can reach out and rip a heavy weight Shurido gi sleeve right off of your arm ... Also I like what Bill is saying about your neuro responses.. Fight or flight.. I was taught that the reason for the eyes and glare we practice has more than one reason.. One is to intimidate the opponent to hesitate for an attack, the other is to widen your peripheral sight and to also sort of prepare you to fight mentally ( in other words to throw yourself into a type of trance so you are not as acceptable to pain or fear)..Van sort of described it on a section he had about bumper stickers.. If you have say a USMC bumper sticker on your car, a thug might be a little hesitant to attack someone who he perceives not to be so ready to avoid a fight but actually welcome it and actually expect to win..

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Bill, I'm more than happy to give you the segue, but for the record, I think you made it mean what you wanted it to mean rather than what I intended. There's a lot of preaching to the choir from my perspective in your response, but it's all good.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Not sure about Dodgers stuff but down here in South Florida I will never go to a Dolphins/Jets game in person. The rivalry is so intense there are guaranteed fights at every game. Add sports fanatics and alchohol and you have a bad mix in a large crowd. I'd be very interested to hear more about his cell phone call to see if he explained in more detail why he was afraid. Not to try to be a devils advocate but normally there aren't completely random "attacks" like this, especially in a crowded parking lot (barring the gang effects or mob scenes). It usually starts with an argument somewhere earlier. He did say they were yelling and "taunting" him just prior to the attack. But he doesn't say whether he added fuel to the fire by his responses. Not saying he's like that or not, but it would make a distinctive difference. All that being said. I liked the mention of the Seisan applications given.


Here is another article on it that gives a little more of the specifics, including a foot chase, etc.....


LOS ANGELES -- A savage beating by two men outside Dodger Stadium left a San Francisco Giants fan in a medically-induced coma as police on Saturday urged any witnesses to help identify the attackers.

The assault after Thursday's season opener between the Los Angeles Dodgers and the rival Giants left a 42-year-old paramedic from Santa Cruz in critical but stable condition.

Police released composite sketches of the two suspects, who were wearing Dodgers clothing.

Detective Larry Burcher said security cameras had yielded nothing of great value, but investigators were confident there were many witnesses with valuable information. Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich offered a $10,000 reward for information leading to the arrests of the suspects.

The two suspects cursed and taunted three men in Giants gear as thousands of fans left the stadium after the 2-1 Dodger victory, Detective T.J. Moore said.

The Giants fans ran and two got away, but the assailants caught up to one in the parking lot, struck him on the back of the head and as he fell, he hit his head on the asphalt, Moore said.

Both attackers then kicked the victim, then ran, Moore said. They fled in a four-door sedan driven by a woman with a boy, Moore said.

The victim's friends returned and found him on the ground.

Police have not released his name, but friends and family told his hometown paper, the Santa Cruz Sentinel, that his name was Bryan Stow, a married father of two who works for a San Jose ambulance company.

Family members were at County-USC Hospital, where doctors put him in a coma to deal with his brain injuries, according to City News Service.

Rebecca Mackowiak, Stow's co-worker at American Medical Response, started a fund to help pay his medical bills.

"He is a really friendly guy and easygoing," she told the Sentinel. "There's not one person in this world who knows him who would think of him as a fighter."

The Dodgers said they were co-operating with investigators and wished the victim a speedy recovery.

After offering the reward, Antonovich called for enhanced security and strict limits on alcohol sales at Dodger Stadium, which is owned by the team and regulated by Los Angeles and the state Alcohol Beverages Control Board.

Dodgers owner Frank McCourt defended the organization, saying the violence was awful but that it can't always be stopped.

"I'm quite confident that all of our measures were in place, and it's just one of those things that you could have 2,000 policemen there and it's just not going to change that random act of violence. It's a sad, sad thing," McCourt said at the dedication of a Dodger-sponsored Little League field in South Los Angeles. "Let's keep in mind that opening day is 56,000 people, it's a lot of people, and the incidents we had relative to that were very, very few. But, that said, one is too many."

Southern California ballparks have seen violence in recent years. In April 2009, a man stabbed his friend in the Dodger Stadium parking lot after the team's home opener. Arthur Alvarez said he acted in self-defense and was acquitted by a jury.

Two months later at Angel Stadium in Anaheim, an off-duty police officer shot and wounded two men who assaulted him in the parking lot after a game.

The story said the West Coast rivalry started with a game played at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum on April 18, 1958. That was the first game between the teams in Los Angeles, but the rivalry started three days earlier, on April 15, 1958, when the Giants beat the Dodgers 8-0 in Seals Stadium in San Francisco.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:54 pm 
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The two suspects cursed and taunted three men in Giants gear as thousands of fans left the stadium after the 2-1 Dodger victory, Detective T.J. Moore said.

The Giants fans ran and two got away, but the assailants caught up to one in the parking lot, struck him on the back of the head and as he fell, he hit his head on the asphalt, Moore said.

Both attackers then kicked the victim, then ran, Moore said. They fled in a four-door sedan driven by a woman with a boy, Moore said.

The victim's friends returned and found him on the ground.


That paints a different picture from the one the other article gave me, and it makes a lot more sense vis-a-vis the injuries.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:40 pm 
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It does indeed paint a different picture. However from the sound of the article, it appears this one was written earlier before much was known about the situation. In the fog of it all, one can never completely trust any one information source.

That said... I want to circle back to another comment I made.

Bill Glasheen wrote:

mhosea wrote:

I'm thinking the victim might have turned his back on the perps, which I know I wouldn't have done. Perhaps he thought of it as "ignore them and maybe they'll go away" whereas they would take it as disrespect.

Would you care to put a label to what you're talking about? (Hint - it exists! ;))


As I tell all the kids in my neighborhood, do not run away from a dog. (I most certainly don't want them to run from my rather strong Ridgeback.) It triggers the chase instinct. They can't help themselves. And guess what? Humans have a chase instinct as well.

Alternatively, it's very difficult for most dogs AND most humans to attack when you (quite literally) face them. This instinct is just as powerful in humans as it is in dogs.

I never say never. But if you are going to run, you'd better have a very quick exit.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:30 am 
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Bill, I think the title of this thread is very appropriate. The victim failed to listen to his gut feeling about what was going on around him. He probably should have left before any of this happened. He probably could have listened to his gut and kept his mouth shut. He probably could have realized that if these people were behaving atrociously in public towards someone else, then there's no reason they wouldn't act in the same way towards him. And call it contempt, or call it naivety, he definitely should never have taken his eyes off the animals.

I hope they catch these guys.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:01 am 
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This is making a game out of the chase instinct.

Ruby - Rhodesian Ridgeback Lure Coursing

Lure Coursing - Sloughi 09Apr10

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Just had some time to review this thread. Lots of lessons to learn.

The most important being Stevie's
Quote:
But I think a good lesson to be taken from it... Expect the world is hard, and there are a$$holes out in it...


Sometimes many of us keep making the mistake of thinking…well …yes…the world is hard or can be hard…but only sometimes…and not always…and what are the chances of my finding it 'hard' today when going to the supermarket? This line of thinking has sunk more than we care to estimate.

So 'expect the world is hard and there are a$$holes out in it' … is really a 24/7 reality…it matters not what you have planned for the day that should be 'innocuous' or 'enjoyable' …or 'minimal in chance'….

I recall an ugly scene at a wedding reception in a hotel where some punks from outside 'crashed' the area and began to insult the bride and guests. And hotel security was very, very late in arriving. By then the emotional damage [thankfully no physical violence] had been done. What a great memory for your wedding day.

Bill wrote
Quote:
And learn to recognize when you are being "interviewed." I have a long walk from my office to the parking garage in downtown Louisville. I am constantly approached by panhandlers - some of whom admit they just got released from prison.


Question to Bill: Ever got the feeling of being 'interviewed' by other drivers…while driving your car?


Quote:
Another thing I wouldn't do, sorry to say, is wear the garb of a visiting team in any stadium. To be honest, I probably would not wear the garb of either team. I don't think I ever have in the past.

But yeah, turning one's back on a group of low-lifes wouldn't be my first choice. Nor opening my mouth over people acting stupid.


Remaining in 'grey mode' is the first rule of survival in volatile environments …

Bill's observations on the 'dump' and 'Tachypsychia' are dead on.

And there something else we learned while training lethal force under Mas Ayoob and John Farnam ….that in spite of past research… no one can predict just how this chemical dump will affect them. In fact, you cannot predict your response even if you have experienced it before.

It is common …. for an individual to experience auditory exclusion or enhancement. It is also common for individuals to experience loss of color vision, decreased communication skills, decreased coordination.

It is common for individuals experiencing tachypsychia to have serious misinterpretations of their surrounding during the events… through a combination of their damaged perception of time, as well as the partial color blindness and tunnel vision.

The most serious danger is the one mentioned where we become vulnerable to attacks from the rear or side…because of the tunneling of the eyes forward and great loss of peripheral vision.

Mas Ayoob, during the stressfire combat drills, taught us to place the free hand up against our jaw line and push and pull the head from side to side, as much as possible in a 'lull' in the action…so as to enhance peripheral vision.

It is indeed unsettling to suddenly hear a voice from behind in the scenario, saying 'you are dead' put your gun down on the ground and step back from it.

The severe lack of adrenaline after the event can mimic post-traumatic stress disorder, and it is common for the individual to appear extremely emotional and overly tired, regardless of their actual physical exertion.

It is common for an individual to experience a Denial Response…and

an Altered Decision Making Process…that will cause the individual to do things never done or been trained to do.

What Bill relates of his '360' and checking his rear constantly is very good advice.

When I walk the streets or even the malls, I have a relaxed habit of shifting direction to look all around by 'being attracted' to store windows at my sides.

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