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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:13 am 
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Hi Jim,

The post was for Bill ,sorry I did not word it right my fault ,the man in the clip I meant. Max

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:24 am 
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Yes Bill.. I think a very good description and validation of what I was taught.. Especially the De Novo comparison and explanation towards the end ! It compares very much with what Peter Kellogg said to me about the torque developed by practicing Sanchin. I didn't want to point at anyone in particular in this forum as I have seen the misconception pretty wide spread.. And I agree that Nakamatsu Sensei is a fabulous Sensei.. I have had the pleasure of picking his brain a few times and always have found pearls!!! I also believe that he is a Math or Engineering Professor at the Ryukyu University as well, but he is very respected by his fellow Masters in Okinawa for sure..
I just wanted to use this as an opportunity to spread the good word concerning the Tandan and also I wanted to mention the Rhomboid muscle group as well.. I hope that I am pointing towards the right group of muscles as I was only shown by touch and have no medical training myself.. But while being trained with the Nigiri Gami I was told by Matsuzaki Sempai that this was the muscle group that is very important to Uechi Ryu. We were taught to use it to not only align and stabilize ourselves, but that if your shoulders are down that this is the muscle that thrusts and contracts back to kamai..

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:35 pm 
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Stevie B wrote:

I just wanted to use this as an opportunity to spread the good word concerning the Tandan and also I wanted to mention the Rhomboid muscle group as well.. I hope that I am pointing towards the right group of muscles as I was only shown by touch and have no medical training myself.. But while being trained with the Nigiri Gami I was told by Matsuzaki Sempai that this was the muscle group that is very important to Uechi Ryu. We were taught to use it to not only align and stabilize ourselves, but that if your shoulders are down that this is the muscle that thrusts and contracts back to kamai..

Let's start with an anatomy lesson. Here are the rhomboids.

Image

This is what your rhomboids do.

Image

Here is an exercise where you can see both the rhomboids and latissimus dorsi being engaged. The lats pull the elbows down, and the rhomboids are pulling the shoulders back (NOT arching the back... this is all in the upper back).

Image

I see all kinds of odd physical anomalies in the gym with the "bench and curl" crowd. Two things I see are the "big bird" look from doing upper body but no squats (big chest with skinny legs)...

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... and the hunchback look from working on the chest but not the back.

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When you hold the jars up front in Sanchin and force yourself to have perfect Sanchin spinal posture, you're necessarily working the rhomboids to pull the shoulders back and in position. Is this important? In a style where grabbing is important, ABSOLUTELY! The push is done with the chest; the pull is done with the back. We are pangainoon, which metaphorically means we do yin and yang equally well. And in any controlled motion where a tremendous amount of energy is going through the torso and to the arms (with reaction to the floor with the legs), one needs a strong shoulder support structure for the arms to deliver force without any loss through squishy shoulders. The chest and back work in dynamic tension to keep the frame (AC or AcromioClavicular joint) firm while the arms move freely within that shoulder frame.

Image

A good way to think about that is to look at an ideal car. You want the car frame to be very sturdy, but you want the wheels to move freely on the axles. A car frame that flexes when you accelerate or brake is not a good thing.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:09 am 
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Nice... I'll speak for the masses this time and say Thanks Doc!!! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:57 am 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
Kuma-de wrote:

Max, who are you referring to? Not me. I practice the 12 original Goju ryu kata, 22 Okinawan Shorin Ryu Kyudokan kata, and probably another 10 or so kata from other versions of Shorin ryu & Shito ryu. I have been posting on this forum many years.

You might want to wait there a second, Jim. I took Max to be speaking about the gentleman who did the original comparison in-between Uechi Sanchin and the sai.

Let's see what Max meant.

- Bill


No problems Bill or Max, I was just trying to inquire who was who?

I checked out a few other of the Kyodo-ryu videos that the gentleman performs some "push hands":

http://youtu.be/Ai1HtkMMrEc

Under the video, a reply to a question about their push hands was this answer "None of the applications you see here are pre-arranged; it's a form of improvisation and reactions to what your partner is doing. We use Sanchin, Rokushu/Tensho and Naihanchin in this activity and they are interconnected by a series of push/pull techniques working on the six-gate principle and body mechanics."

I find that this answer is disingenuous b/c the "Rokushu" which is really 'Rokugoikkishu' was only an exercise that Miyagi Sensei based his Tensho kata upon. I have a short paper that I can send you about it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:39 am 
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Kuma-de wrote:

Under the video, a reply to a question about their push hands was this answer "None of the applications you see here are pre-arranged; it's a form of improvisation and reactions to what your partner is doing. We use Sanchin, Rokushu/Tensho and Naihanchin in this activity and they are interconnected by a series of push/pull techniques working on the six-gate principle and body mechanics."

I find that this answer is disingenuous b/c the "Rokushu" which is really 'Rokugoikkishu' was only an exercise that Miyagi Sensei based his Tensho kata upon. I have a short paper that I can send you about it.

Interesting... I'm pretty sure I've seen that video before. I don't find what you say and his answer to the blogger to be in conflict. It seems to me you and he are pretty much saying the same thing.

I'm glad you brought up the connection between Rokugoikkishu and Tensho. That makes a lot of sense to me. I really never thought of that as sticky hands (or push hands) until this discussion and that video. It really sheds a new light on what we can be doing in our Uechi Ryu.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:25 am 
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Here is the way I think about the Rhomboid Muscle's as I'm puuling my elbow back to get ready to thrust..I realize we are carrying two conversations here.. But I thought that it was worth putting up.. And that is that I envision a Bow and arrow ( with the Rhomboid being the fingers drawing the string. I am sure that Bill is completely correct in the chest pushing the Nukite.. I just think of it that way.. Like the Rhomboid drawing the Bow to the proper extent and when the hold back is released, the elbow guiding the shaft past the ribs..Just the way I think about it.. Hope it helps someone envision..

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Stevie B wrote:

Here is the way I think about the Rhomboid Muscle's as I'm puuling my elbow back to get ready to thrust..I realize we are carrying two conversations here.. But I thought that it was worth putting up.. And that is that I envision a Bow and arrow ( with the Rhomboid being the fingers drawing the string. I am sure that Bill is completely correct in the chest pushing the Nukite.. I just think of it that way.. Like the Rhomboid drawing the Bow to the proper extent and when the hold back is released, the elbow guiding the shaft past the ribs..Just the way I think about it.. Hope it helps someone envision..

Don't let the silence fool you; this is really good stuff! Some instructors transcend their math/science skills by displaying the gift of information and concept transfer. All the schooling in the world can't teach that.

FWIW, you can visualize this in one of the pictures I posted above.

Image

I really like the bow-and-arrow analogy, Stevie, and have used it myself. As they say, great minds think alike! 8) Among many reasons, the beauty of the analogy is that it helps the Sanchin practitioner keep the forearm properly lined up and it helps them use core rather than peripheral muscles to "release" the forearm from its chambered position. It also helps the practitioner feel the proper rigidity in the hand/fingers (piercing arrow tip) as one relaxes the muscles which otherwise would slow down the forward velocity of the extending forearm (rotating arrow).

Turn the analogy backwards and you can see the utility of the chambering motion as a rearward elbow strike or a pulling motion in touch-range fighting/grappling. We Uechi/Goju people after all are supposed to be about a balance of the yin and the yang - hence our pangainoon and their go-ju. Many Okinawan instructors have lost the yin, but you find places here and elsewhere where it's being rediscovered and taken to its logical full expression.

In fact... go way, way back to the original raison d’être of this video. The proper sai (and tonfa) is supposed to extend about an inch (2.5 cm) beyond the tip of the elbow.

Image

Chamber the sai and one discovers an elbow thrust with attitude. :twisted:

- Bill


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