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 Post subject: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:08 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys7m4-Na ... re=related

Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:36 pm 
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Weird vid. It took me half the video to figure out who the Uechi guy was (I assume its the guy wearing the gi).

1. I wonder if this isn't mislabeled. The "judo" guy isn't wearing a gi, and seems predisposed to pull guard and do other things that are more in keep with a BJJ strategy. It sounds like the participants are speaking Portuguese, so I wonder if this isn't a BJJ vs. Uechi thing.

2. The Uechi guy seems to have had some ground training. Of course, the BJJ/Judo guy seems to have some stand up too.

3. The rules of this contest seem very vague. They stand the action up at one point for no obvious reason (unless the Uechi guy tapped, but I don't think so). When the Uechi guy knocks his opponent off the mat, he keeps attacking him.

The grappler seems to have the advantage until he exhausts himself chasing that choke. After that, its the striker's game.

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Good clip, which basically points out to the importance of having some grappling skills along with traditional Uechi.

Thinking that we will never be taken down because we practice Uechi, is a pipe dream.

Also look at the way the Uechi guy fell prey to the 'shoot'….where was his Seisan Bunkai defense against that take down?

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:17 pm 
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A little truth in advertising here for those who don't know...

Sal is ranked in traditional Japanese jujutsu, and has done plenty of BJJ. He got his dan in Uechi from Bruce Hirabayashi. I had the pleasure of "touring" with him in a trip to Germany with both Bruce and George. To say he's the real deal is not an overstatement.

I can only presume that Sal is as intrigued as the next guy about the title of the video, and the unspoken rules of this semi-cooperative "match". I'm guessing when he posted this that he was hiding the smile of a Cheshire cat.

What a pleasure it is to see Jake and Van drawn into the conversation. :)

Jake wrote:
Weird vid. It took me half the video to figure out who the Uechi guy was (I assume its the guy wearing the gi).

Had it not been for my ability to read the kanji on the gis, I quite possibly could have been just as mystified.

I thought all your other comments were spot on, Jake. But then I'd expect that.

Van wrote:
Good clip, which basically points out to the importance of having some grappling skills along with traditional Uechi.

Or... it points to the importance of finding the grappling in your Uechi. Sometimes a circle is just a circle. Sometimes an elbow is just a flexed arm. And sometimes an erect posture is just a convenient starting point when teaching a concept.

If Ray was here, he'd be having a seizure with those comments. What-ever... Society never could put me in a tidy little box the way some stylists like to dictate what a person can and cannot do. That never stopped Joey did it, Van? Or Jack (Summers). Or Mike (Murphy). Or the Uechika who enlist in the Marines and participate in the MCMAP...

Or Sal either. Not that I'm name-dropping or anything... ;)

Van wrote:
look at the way the Uechi guy fell prey to the 'shoot'….where was his Seisan Bunkai defense against that take down?

A good shoot is executed without prejudice. It doesn't care what patch you have on your chest.

And if you're as delusional as some accuse me of being, you just might "see" a good shoot in Sanseiryu (after the three sliding reverse shokens). But there I go again... :P

BTW... I won't completely negate the Okinawa-blessed Seisan bunkai application you speak of, Van. Even Joe Pomfret (Uechi/BJJ) once told me he liked that. But it sure as hell isn't the number 1 application of that sequence in my book. And if anyone thinks I'm being irreverent, check out a Shinyu Gushi video some time.

Just sayin.. ;)

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Hi Bill,

The smiles are all around.
Quote:
Or... it points to the importance of finding the grappling in your Uechi. _That never stopped Joey did it, Van?


I am sure we are on the same page on this one…but…guys like Joe Pomfret studied BJJ…he did not 'find' the grappling in Uechi by just practicing Uechi and going the so called 'deeper' BS I hear quite often. As I have said countless times…developing bad habits…and people will if trying to find the grapple in Uechi without guidance by someone who knows grappling _ will bury them on the street.

The reason why Joey has developed a basic grappling drill for Uechi people…out of his BJJ training.

If someone wants to be good at grappling he will need specific cross training which he can then 'relate' to Uechi.
Quote:
BTW... I won't completely negate the Okinawa-blessed Seisan Bunkai application you speak of, Van. Even Joe Pomfret (Uechi/BJJ) once told me he liked that. But it sure as hell isn't the number 1 application of that sequence in my book. And if anyone thinks I'm being irreverent, check out a Shinyu Gushi video some time.


Agreed on not completely denying the Bunkai application. It will work sometimes and it all depends on who the opponent is.

I have some students in the Bridgewater dojo that you will be committing suicide if pulling that seisan defense against their shoot, and they're just playing. :)

Yup…Gushi's Bunkai applications have an entirely different execution focus. Much more realistic. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:

I am sure we are on the same page on this one…but…guys like Joe Pomfret studied BJJ…he did not 'find' the grappling in Uechi by just practicing Uechi and going the so called 'deeper' BS I hear quite often. As I have said countless times…developing bad habits…and people will if trying to find the grapple in Uechi without guidance by someone who knows grappling _ will bury them on the street.

Certainly in many ways we are on the same page. I got my grappling sense from studying Goju and aikido from someone who began his martial journey in judo. He was a genius at creating continuous-movement Goju bunkai that contained at least one grappling movement.

My curse in Uechi was my blessing. I was outside where established instructors were, so I had to build my Uechi with a curriculum constructed from training available to me. I saw the need to do stand-up AND grappling well before MMA became a cliché. My first karate instructor (Japanese) was himself a judo player.

This is my opinion - worth two cents and some change. (Danger, danger!!!)

The lack of grappling in most Uechi dojos isn't the fault of the style; it's the fault of interpretation and execution on (most of) Okinawa. Don't blame the style, and don't blame the material Kanbun saw in China. I cannot believe that the brand of in-your-face fighting he saw in China (pre Okinawan sport karate) was lacking a ground game, or consisted only of hard contact striking. IMO the problem involved trying to package the lessons he learned. Other than through the kata, it's tough. His jiyu was just... different. And I'm sure lots of people got hurt. It happens...

I'm also of an academic and of a Chinese mindset in that I believe it is the responsibility of us "old timers" not to be Matrix-style clones, but rather to explore, interpret, and to contribute. And yes - that means exploring outside the dojo walls as many of our Okinawan elders did.

After shodan I endorse my students' excursions outside the confines of my teaching. And I expect them to bring their life lessons back home with them, and grow what I gave them.

Van Canna wrote:

The reason why Joey has developed a basic grappling drill for Uechi people…out of his BJJ training.

All good stuff. I've bought his videos. As Milton Berle used to say, "I know a good joke when I steal it." ;)

Van Canna wrote:

If someone wants to be good at grappling he will need specific cross training which he can then 'relate' to Uechi.

Here's the thing. I teach ukemi in my Uechi dojo on day one. Do my students need to go outside my dojo to learn it? No.

Will they need to go outside my dojo to see why I planted the seeds within them? If they're smart they will. ;) A good teacher is like a good parent. You don't necessarily give a child everything they need in the world. You make it possible for them to earn it on their own. As I've seen many a time in New England Uechi Ryu... when you hand someone material on a silver platter, they don't appreciate what is there right in front of them. The lesson is learned more deeply when it comes from self-discovery in a process guided by a good teacher.

Van Canna wrote:

Yup…Gushi's Bunkai applications have an entirely different execution focus. Much more realistic. :wink:

His Uechi is to modern Okinawan Uechi as traditional Japanese jujutsu (as practiced by Rory Miller or Sal Jaber) is to BJJ. The former is combat oriented; the latter is geared to sport. One isn't necessarily superior to the other. Each has its niche.

But most of the principles are the same, which makes the teacher more important (IMO) than the specific art.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Jake Steinmann wrote:

The grappler seems to have the advantage until he exhausts himself chasing that choke. After that, its the striker's game.

Here's the thing I noticed, Jake. It's an age-old story in sport fighting, and to some extent it exists in other physical activities.

What I noted is how clever the Uechika was (the guy in the white pajamas) at preserving his energy. He employed a technique that a classic rock climber employs - an activity that any Uechika worth his salt should engage in. He uses his muscles as little as possible, and his skeleton (through proper posture) as much as possible.

  • Note the sequence from 0:18 to 1:03 where the Uechika locks himself in a classic posture (any Uechika recognize it???) and lets the grappler do all the work trying to escape. The former is using the skeletal strength of the posture with a simple hand lock. The latter is using all his body's energy trying to get out of it. He finally resorts to standing up out of the ground mount - carrying the load of the Uechika - because he can't do anything in his neutralized position.
    ...
  • In much of the sequence from 1:08 through 2:08 at the "break up", the Uechika is in a 4-point posture that's burning very little energy. Arms are extended so the skeleton (via arms and knees) is holding him up.
    ...
  • Meanwhile... as Jake pointed out, the grappler exhausts himself "chasing a choke." Someone needs to give him a simple lesson in anatomy and physiology so he understands how a blood choke works. The Uechika is safe in that "choke" and he damn well knows it. He does what a former instructor taught me - he goes INTO the choke and orients the neck so he's safe. The grappler continues to burn energy. Tick, tick, tick, tick...

By the time they stand up the second time, the grappler's energy level is depleted and the Uechika knows it. He's like a tiger going in for the kill. Without a ref there, he really could have been hurt.

A lesson I learned well from Joe is not to panic on the ground. The ground can be your friend. Gravity certainly is, if you know how to use it. As long as you're not getting hit and neither neck nor limb is compromised, it doesn't matter who is on top and who is grabbing whom.* The most important thing is to relax, burn as little energy as possible, and move like water for that opening. The more ju and the less go employed, the longer you'll last before things get dicey.

- Bill

* This is different on the street where there may be more than one bad guy. But if that was the case, I'm sure the Uechi "claws" would be out. All is fair...


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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:01 am 
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I agree Bill. I was a green belt in a style that combined judo/jj_ when I began Uechi training.

Having played 'randori' matches up and down the mat, feeling my eyes go 'glassy'…it is my view that if one wants to learn to grapple…then he must grapple to the ground and to exhaustion, under the guidance of grappling teacher.

Too many Uechi people who will argue no cross training is needed, simply because grappling is in our forms and it is up to us to find it. Yeah right.

But without the proper training, even if they practice the 'Uechi grapple', they will develop bad habits which will ingrain and ruin their day some fateful day. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:36 am 
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There are so many ways to develop bad habits. Even the sport grappling develops so many - as can be seen in this "match." So much time spent with the hands down by the side, exposing the head. What's up with that?

You're right that one needs to get away from the incestuous fighting. For example... there's nothing like a few knife classes with Raffi to teach you to think twice about a classic "posting" posture when the blade comes out. I don't have a problem being like the tea in the teacup, but then I've sampled a few teacups in my life. After a few variations on the theme in martial arts, you begin to get it. (Note emphasis on "begin.")

Plus... A (former) surgeon learns to respect a blade. ;)

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:36 am 
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Right you are Bill :) It proves the point that 'bad habits' is a very insidious disease, yet too many slip down the rationalization's slippery ride.

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
Had it not been for my ability to read the kanji on the gis, I quite possibly could have been just as mystified.


OK, but if there were no labels and no kanji to read, I'd have guessed this was a low-ranking BJJ or novice MMA practitioner against a reasonably experienced Kyokushin fighter. Just sayin'.

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:01 am 
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Too much to comment on this in one night.. However a few notes.. The last choke the Uechi practitioner applied is right out of our katas.. Second.. Mike is right, the guy in the shorts is a miss match.. But, with that said.. Don't walk into a shin you can't stop.. Leg kicks are hard to stop and hard to counter once you are in the mix.. Better to hurt his shin with a really hard leg, then counter.. One big thing I see on both ends is level of commitment when throwing techniques or even setting a good one up. Like the Corps teaches us.. "One shot, one kill ! " Don't hesitate or second think the shot... Focus and give it all into one shot. If the Uechi Ka had been doing that a bit more, it wouldn't have lasted so long..

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:03 am 
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We are both Hard and Soft :lol: People just have a harder time finding the "Soft".. If that's what you want to call it?

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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:30 am 
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Stevie B wrote:
People just have a harder time finding the "Soft".. If that's what you want to call it?

The elegant soft techniques (the ju) come with time. When young, dumb, and full of ... energy, a dude just wants to bash. But lots of time on the floor and/or the mat will sap energy and/or cause lots of bruises. That's when epiphany happens. Either that or one gets the sheet kicked out of him per the example of the fellow in shorts above.

My best karate happened when teaching while overtraining. Being tired makes you think often about just getting off that line of force and/or finding ways to burn the energy out of your attacker. Watching this clip makes me wonder if the Uechika's fight above was strategy, or he just stumbled into a not-so-smart opponent.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Uechi vs Judo?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:39 pm 
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The "Judo" guy's stand up looked like yellow belt level TKD to me. That ridiculous double round house he tried at the start... It's not meant for full contact, but it still works if you fake the first one and hammer the second one to the face. He landed the first one and "faked" the second one (unintentionally.)

It's like the karate and MMA guys you see slipping punches or rocking away because they've seen boxers do it, but they don't understand the concepts behind it. Heath Herring is a bad culprit of just doing things he's seen others do. If you're going to slip a punch badly, you're better off not slipping at all. At least you're not shoving your face in to a knee.

I get the feeling this a naturally buff young kid with not a lot of training in any style. Could probably still kick some ass, and likely would have if the karate guy didn't have any grappling training.

Edit: I think those shorts might indicate this is a guy training at an MMA gym for a bit. Or he's a Brazilian beach bum, from what I hear those guys will fight anything that moves. :D


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