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 Post subject: Movement under stress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Much has been written in the contemporary self-defense literature about the effects of extreme neurohormonal stimulation on our ability to do things. We know:

  • There is a complete loss of fine motor coordination.
    ...
  • Complex motor coordination can be compromised. How much? It depends...
    ...
  • Gross motor abilities are enhanced. Sometimes this is good. Sometimes it makes a person dangerously predictable.

Kanchin and Sanseiryu contain several unusual movements in them. The former - a very young kata - has the tenshin movements right in the very beginning. The latter has that very unusual 225-degree turn before doing a generic Sanchin nukite thrust. Coming from someone who has trained in aikido (learned from a Goju/grappler), I can see the execution through getting off of the line of force.

For the tenshin movement, I think its value in a duel situation is less about reorienting against an attack from the side and more about getting behind the attacker you're facing. It fits in well with the story about how Kanbun handled an attacker in China who lunged at him with a knife on the end of a stick. Rather than "block" it, the story speaks of Kanbun getting on the attacker's back. Jumping over him? I don't think so. Getting around him as one does in akido's ushiro ate? Makes sense to me!

The best application I've (personally) discovered with the 225-degree turn is sneaking under the arm of the attacker and ending up behind them. These kinds of movements aren't unusual in aikido. You won't see them practiced in classroom Uechi Ryu, but my senses tell me the application was there all along.

So my questions to the peanut gallery are...

1) Do you see these tai sabaki movements in your Uechi Ryu or in the style you practice?

2) Do you actually practice them with a partner?

3) Do you think it's possible for a reasonably well-trained person to pull this off when under life-threatening stress?

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:37 am 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
So my questions to the peanut gallery are...

1) Do you see these tai sabaki movements in your Uechi Ryu or in the style you practice?

2) Do you actually practice them with a partner?

3) Do you think it's possible for a reasonably well-trained person to pull this off when under life-threatening stress?

- Bill


1 - In Jujutsu, Judo, Aikido, and Krav Maga, yes. Uechi, what I remember of it, no (but I never got past Hachi-Kyu).

2 - I have, but not currently.

3 - Yes and no. If your heart rate gets above 150, all bets are off, IMO.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Hey, Jason!

What a wonderful response! It's as thoughtful and thought-provoking as I could have hoped for.

Emphasis below is my own.

Jason Rees wrote:
Bill Glasheen wrote:
1) Do you see these tai sabaki movements in your Uechi Ryu or in the style you practice?

1 - In Jujutsu, Judo, Aikido, and Krav Maga, yes. Uechi, what I remember of it, no (but I never got past Hachi-Kyu).

Fair enough, Jason. It's probably fair to say that tai sabaki isn't a white belt concept except maybe in aikido where one starts with getting off the line of force rather than generating force. And I did mention that the moves in question were in Kanchin and Sanseiryu.

That said... Did you ever give the tenshin movements in the Uechi hojoundo (beginning exercises) a second thought? What the hell are those things, and why did Uechi Kanei consider them so important that he made three (3) of them in a set of thirteen exercises?

Jason Rees wrote:
Bill Glasheen wrote:
3) Do you think it's possible for a reasonably well-trained person to pull this off when under life-threatening stress?

3 - Yes and no. If your heart rate gets above 150, all bets are off, IMO.


I like that you get quantitative. It shows your background and shows you've been doing some reading.

That said... We must remember that in the literature, heat-rate is used as an index of neurohormonal stimulation, all other things being equal. But if someone is already engaged in a physical endeavor (as opposed to elevated heart-rate from fright), then maybe we're talking about initial conditions with a different range of psychological responses.

All that said...

You did what I asked and went out on a limb with a SWAG (Sophisticated Wild-Assed Guess). So have you thought about why you think this?

  • Is it because you're aware of deer-in-the-headlamps syndrome? Does this have anything to do with your thinking?
    ...
  • Does your thinking have anything to do with substantive loss of complex motor coordination (CMC)? If so... why is there an obsession in Uechi Ryu with thrusting right up the middle when a complete loss of CMC leads to looping punches? Could it be because the choreographer thought the bad guy could be too juiced and leave the middle open for us, while we could train not to lose the ability to exploit it? In other words do you think that part of the purpose of karate do (and sanchin do) is to teach us how to retain CMC under extreme stress? (e.g. Sanchin as walking meditation)
    ...
  • It's clear to me that very old arts such as battlefield jiujitsu think getting to someone's back is doable and important. Otherwise the bloodchoke from behind wouldn't be taught. So do the authors of this ancient battlefield art know something we doubters don't, or are they engaged in some wishful thinking as well?

Anyhow... thanks for getting things started, Jason!

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:59 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LXvfl_I ... ure=topics

I have always thought of Enshin Karate as one of the very best and most effective styles because of its 'Tai Sabaki' foundation, and also after having met the heavy weight 'Sabaki challenge' world champion, once at gary Khoury's dojo.

Awe inspiring performance to say the least.

I am with Bill in the validity and constant practice against habitual acts of street violence of the :

Tenshin zensoku geri (Turn-Block-Front Kick-Forward Leg)
Tenshin kosuko geri (Turn-Block-Front Kick-Back Leg)
Tenshin shoken tsuki (Turn-Block-One Knuckle Punch)

And its variations on movement.

This lesson is painfully learned against certain bunkai attacks..i.e., a swinging baseball bat by a powerful large opponent who generates much force momentum which we delude ourselves being able to deflect/block with one arm while the other will do the elbow strike, back fist and shoken.

If anybody doubtes this, stop by our dojo and I will have Carl 'our secret weapon' :wink: with strenght, size, power and speed of a linebacker, come at you with a bat :lol:


in a street fight or even a simulated dojo real fight It won’t take long for us learn that getting to someone’s back is easier said than done, and that our opponent is a little more resilient to certain strikes than we probably expected.

The reason why the tai sabaki should be the number one concept in our training as Bill suggests.

With the heart rate of 150/175...Catching punches under such stress with blocks will also become history.

One good way to find out about this is to have someone who doesn't train in Uechi, put on gloves and really/really try to punch us full power and speed.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Hello, Van! I knew you wouldn't be able to resist on this topic. ;)

The Enshin Karate YouTube clip is fascinating! I'm embarrassed to admit I know so little about this group - embarrassed because the master here executes in a way that pleases me so much. I'm with you, Van. I think Uechika should look at this clip, and see if maybe they can see "their style" in these choreographed sequences.

Here are the things I liked:

  • His frontal, shallow stances with open palms forward. Look familiar?
    ...
  • His very first attack of the attack. First, it was a front kick off the front leg. Look familiar?
    ...
  • More importantly is where he struck on his first attack-of-the-attack. We were just talking about these "joint fold" reflex techniques on one of your threads. When it comes to kyusho, these are my favorites. The principle is simple, they don't require pain to work, and the mechanics are sound even if the reflex never happens.
    ...
  • On almost all techniques, he seeks to get behind his opponent. This isn't Rockem Sockem Robot karate; he gets away from the frontal pi$$ing match as quickly as possible.
    ...
  • Speaking of joint fold attacks which trigger reflex points... He has an affinity for the fold of knee, doesn't he? I understand why people are squeamish about including these in routine classroom bunkai. Mess up the angle of attack and you have a permanent injury. That said... It sure is effective! I see Shinjo Sensei including this in his Kenyukai Yankusoku Kumite.

More in a bit...

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:11 pm 
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As usual, Van, you return home to what matters - HAPV.

Van Canna wrote:

This lesson is painfully learned against certain bunkai attacks..i.e., a swinging baseball bat by a powerful large opponent who generates much force momentum which we delude ourselves being able to deflect/block with one arm while the other will do the elbow strike, back fist and shoken.

If anybody doubtes this, stop by our dojo and I will have Carl 'our secret weapon' :wink: with strenght, size, power and speed of a linebacker, come at you with a bat :lol:


This brings to mind a technique Bobby Campbell taught at one of the Thompson Island summer camps. I don't know if this was Bobby being Bobby, or he saw the sequence in Sanseiryu and totally got it. Thing is... we do this step-circle-elbow sequence in Sanseiryu - followed by a 135-degree turn. Is this facing a new bad guy, or was the turn intended to be part of the last sequence? :idea: The answer IMO may not matter so much, as repetition of the sequence creates a habit we can tap into. And that's all that matters.

Bobby was once faced by someone with a baseball bat while in the Philippines. Now you just know someone with Bobby's instincts was going to see an opportunity and then let it happen. What Bobby did was enter the right-handed-swinging bat movement per our kata, and then turn while wrapping his arm (a.k.a. elbow technique) around the attacker's head/neck. A continuation of the angular momentum (something that aikidoka practice a lot) creates a situation where the attacker now cares much more about whether his body will follow the head than he does about holding the bat. Not only did Bobby get inside the eye of the vortex where it was safe, but he caused the hands to drop the bat and hang for dear life onto that which was twisting his head around.

Bobby... that was so good that it suks! I hate you in the most respectful way! :lol:

I remember practicing it at the camp in Bobby's session. It was a most unpleasant experience being the guy with the bat. And I distinctly remember my partner cursing me when it was my turn to enter/grab/turn. Not that I was trying to hurt him...

Van Canna wrote:

in a street fight or even a simulated dojo real fight It won’t take long for us learn that getting to someone’s back is easier said than done, and that our opponent is a little more resilient to certain strikes than we probably expected.

This is what keeps people who are honest with themselves awake at night. At the moment of truth, will I be brilliant like Bobby or suk like the Bill in my bad dreams?

And I guess the answer is... it depends.

Emphasis below is my own.
Van Canna wrote:
The reason why the tai sabaki should be the number one concept in our training as Bill suggests.

With the heart rate of 150/175...Catching punches under such stress with blocks will also become history.

Brilliant! Therein likes an important approach to a "martial problem". When considering an option, we shouldn't necessarily dwell on the absolute probability it will work. What's more important is the relative probability of it working vs. other available alternatives - however remote any good outcome may be.

Turning possible into probable is the tricky part (bad pun notwithstanding). But repetition and mindset seem to be a great start here - IMO.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:02 am 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
Hey, Jason!

What a wonderful response! It's as thoughtful and thought-provoking as I could have hoped for.


What else is a peanut gallery for? :lol:

Quote:
Fair enough, Jason. It's probably fair to say that tai sabaki isn't a white belt concept except maybe in aikido where one starts with getting off the line of force rather than generating force. And I did mention that the moves in question were in Kanchin and Sanseiryu.


You did! Thus my qualifying statement. I might also add it's been ten years since I trained in Uechi?

Quote:
That said... Did you ever give the tenshin movements in the Uechi hojoundo (beginning exercises) a second thought? What the hell are those things, and why did Uechi Kanei consider them so important that he made three (3) of them in a set of thirteen exercises?


It's been too long, Bill. Sanchin and a few movements otherwise are all I have left. Sadly, I haven't lived in an area where a Uechi dojo existed for the last decade or so. Do you have any videos to link to?

Bill Glasheen wrote:
3) Do you think it's possible for a reasonably well-trained person to pull this off when under life-threatening stress?

Jason Rees wrote:
3 - Yes and no. If your heart rate gets above 150, all bets are off, IMO.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
I like that you get quantitative. It shows your background and shows you've been doing some reading.


Quote:
That said... We must remember that in the literature, heat-rate is used as an index of neurohormonal stimulation, all other things being equal. But if someone is already engaged in a physical endeavor (as opposed to elevated heart-rate from fright), then maybe we're talking about initial conditions with a different range of psychological responses.


I was going with the premise of 'life-threatening stress,' experienced by a 'reasonably well-trained person.' If, however, you take someone who has zero 'training,' but plenty of familiarity with life-threatening stress, then they won't have the neuro-hormonal stimulant-induced problems. They'll just get physical. Take someone who has really good training at handling life-threatening stress, and the second or third time, they'll respond optimally, with fewer penalties from the chemical cocktail noted above. But a 'reasonably well-trained individual?' It's a crapshoot. Chances are, they don't know how they'll respond, and after the chemical dump that's assured in a life-threatening situation, neither do you or I.

Quote:
You did what I asked and went out on a limb with a SWAG (Sophisticated Wild-Assed Guess). So have you thought about why you think this?


I like that. SWAG. I'll have to remember it.

Quote:
  • Is it because you're aware of deer-in-the-headlamps syndrome? Does this have anything to do with your thinking?
    ...
  • Does your thinking have anything to do with substantive loss of complex motor coordination (CMC)? If so... why is there an obsession in Uechi Ryu with thrusting right up the middle when a complete loss of CMC leads to looping punches? Could it be because the choreographer thought the bad guy could be too juiced and leave the middle open for us, while we could train not to lose the ability to exploit it? In other words do you think that part of the purpose of karate do (and sanchin do) is to teach us how to retain CMC under extreme stress? (e.g. Sanchin as walking meditation)
    ...
  • It's clear to me that very old arts such as battlefield jiujitsu think getting to someone's back is doable and important. Otherwise the bloodchoke from behind wouldn't be taught. So do the authors of this ancient battlefield art know something we doubters don't, or are they engaged in some wishful thinking as well?
Anyhow... thanks for getting things started, Jason!
- Bill



I've experienced deer-in-the-headlights. It's no fun. A punch in the face to shake you out of it, even less so.

I think karate was taught in a different culture, one in which dealing with stress was taught differently, in a different environment. I think keeping one's cool under assault was the norm, rather than the exception, whether your profession was karate or preparing tea.

Who's a doubter? I'm very fond of rear chokes (not to mention kidney strikes and neck cranks), and I know they're effective, and that it's entirely possible to get someone to expose their back for it! :lol: I pray for big haymakers. :wink: It's just that it takes more than some training and throwing somebody out there. You have to get comfortable doing it, actively seek it, not lose that line of thought in a dangerous encounter, and execute it with limited CMC. That's alot of hurdles, even for 'reasonably well-trained' people.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
That said... Did you ever give the tenshin movements in the Uechi hojoundo (beginning exercises) a second thought? What the hell are those things, and why did Uechi Kanei consider them so important that he made three (3) of them in a set of thirteen exercises?

Jason Rees wrote:
It's been too long, Bill. Sanchin and a few movements otherwise are all I have left. Sadly, I haven't lived in an area where a Uechi dojo existed for the last decade or so. Do you have any videos to link to?


You will see two consecutive "tenshin" movements from Kanchin kata in this video link. Check out 1:38-1:43.

Karate do - Uechi Ryu (or Pangai Noon)

These represent the first two of the three "beginning exercise" or hojoundo tenshin sequences that Van mentioned above.

Van Canna wrote:
I am with Bill in the validity and constant practice against habitual acts of street violence of the :

Tenshin zensoku geri (Turn-Block-Front Kick-Forward Leg)
Tenshin kosuko geri (Turn-Block-Front Kick-Back Leg)
Tenshin shoken tsuki (Turn-Block-One Knuckle Punch)


It's worth mentioning - as I did above - that Uechi Kanei chose to add these three (3) sequences to the 13 *beginner* exercises.

By the way, Jason, the degree of turn in the exercises (90-degrees) is arbitrary. You have to start with something. The hojoundo start with one 45-degree shift, and then do repeated 90-degree shifts. I teach my students how to increase the angle to 180-degree shifts, which then teaches someone how to do all kinds of practical applications such as setting up a kote gaeshi or getting to someone's back to do a lateral vascular neck restraint. And I also teach them how to stretch it to a 360-degree shift. Why? Because I then can show them that "it" exists in popular sports (e.g. spinning out of a tackle in football or dribbling around a defender in basketball) without any claim of martial magic. It also teaches my students how to get out of a situation of being surrounded in a many-on-one attack scenario.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Really a good discussion…we learn by exploring individual views.

The effectiveness of all we do is based on whether or not our movements under the dump are congruent with what the body seems to want to do naturally, movement wise, to escape injury or death.

Side stepping, turning and or moving in straight in first before turning, are all natural response actions of primal man.

I believe Bill mentioned the strategy of rotating into the blind spot of the opponent.

Here is the concept of Enshin karate
Quote:
His[Master Ninomiya] technical theory is simple and conceptually unquestionable: position yourself in the "blind spot" of your opponent, and terminate him. However, it demands lots of training to be carried out flawlessly under the stress of actual combat. Ninomiya comes from the famed Kyokushin tradition, which combines a traditional mindset, the strongest of training ethics, and a creative approach to fighting.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:41 pm 
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In the past Bill has also mentioned sequential body movements…and we can conclude that we will learn to operate effectively in a style that promotes movements with how our body normally works under flight or fight.

So sequential body movement can be defined as a style that teaches the connecting of individual movements together so as to create a series of forces we can use for generating momentum and impact… examples would be stepping forward and turning, or 'spinouts' where the 'center line' of our body becomes the pivot point from which all movement originates.

There are many of these in our Uechi kata, but they need to be familiarized with, which means taking the applications in Bunkai to different pathways the 'standard' is always pointing to…thus beckoning.

You will discover that quick explosive 'little' movement is all that is necessary from inside the circle to generate substantial speed, power, and redirection to the outside circumference of that circle.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:42 pm 
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When we practice against a baseball bat attack…I look at what form that attack might take on the street against a maniac you are not able to evade.

In the USA, baseball land, it will be ingrained into most everybody to swing the bat from above a shoulder coming horizontally at your head, or possibly swing down low at your legs.

Will he lift the bat above his head and come down on yours? Maybe…but low percentage.

Deciding to 'go for it' will always be fraught with danger, because your heart rate is skyrocketing, and you know subliminally that if you 'blow it' as you might …under stress, as your fine motor skills leave town…you may well die or get bashed pretty bad.

So you might hesitate...and if you do…you will lose the timing advantage and or flail your arms into the hit trajectory. You are done.

It is your job to sense his initial 'cocking' trajectory of the weapon and to move in on him as he enters your 'air space' while the weapon is being cocked and not wait for the swing down, or you might never be able to block it…redirect it…before suffering some serious injuries in trying to deal with the weight of the opponent' momentum, his body weight, his speed, his intent and, yes the weight of the bat as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Bill mentions being safe in the eye of the storm…well said…I teach to attack just as the opponent enters your space, attempting to 'short stop' his swing…

Using the hojo undo concept as discussed…if the swing is right handed coming at me, I side step forward right at an angle, my left arm in a sanchin position…my right arm ..Closed fist...swinging across my body [as in performing a wauke] striking violently at the back of his left arm…while spinning on hard contact of my right shoulder hitting his left shoulder…then rotating my left leg violently to the left rear.

At the same time I clamp both my arms [my right under his elbows…my left over the elbows and the bat]
while continuing to spin in a 360…using the opponent's swinging momentum against him…and as he 'dances' around…I forcefully rip the bat out of his hands and attack his legs with it as he tries to regain his composure.

Just a variation of the 'Campbell method' which he also showed me.

Caveat from master Ninomiya
Quote:
However, it demands lots of training to be carried out flawlessly under the stress of actual combat.


So this needs to be practiced realistically...we also have the psychological aspect of a baseball bat attack to deal with.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:56 pm 
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I'm really enjoying your discussions, Jason. You obviously show a lot of consideration on the topic.

My oldest son is taking a college freshman course in logic. He often consults with me on his problem sets, which I absolutely love. There are many brain-twisters in the problems, and a lot of intentional misleads and redirections.

Which leads me (respectfully) to accuse you of a false argument below.

Jason Rees wrote:
I was going with the premise of 'life-threatening stress,' experienced by a 'reasonably well-trained person.' If, however, you take someone who has zero 'training,' but plenty of familiarity with life-threatening stress, then they won't have the neuro-hormonal stimulant-induced problems. They'll just get physical. Take someone who has really good training at handling life-threatening stress, and the second or third time, they'll respond optimally, with fewer penalties from the chemical cocktail noted above. But a 'reasonably well-trained individual?' It's a crapshoot. Chances are, they don't know how they'll respond, and after the chemical dump that's assured in a life-threatening situation, neither do you or I.

I've seen this argument over and over again on our myriad Forums discussions. Van uses it a lot, but I give him a pass. Why? Because his modus operendum is to shake people's core beliefs with piss-your-pants scenarios. Better Van cause someone to confront false gods in the safe confines of a Forums discussion than to face it way too late at the moment of truth. If you don't cling to false beliefs, then you don't take Van's bait. If you do... ;)

What you do here is to pit the extremes of classroom training with zero life experience against experience with zero classroom training. You conclude that the lifetime experience leads to 'optimal' performance and the classroom training leads to "a crapshoot." Your argument falls apart in two places: 1) my "reasonably well-trained person" you refer to above doesn't compare to your stereotype classroom warrior, and 2) you've presented no evidence that suggests that someone with "zero training" but a few really bad experiences is going to "respond optimally." What kind of spontaneous generation epiphany turns a blank martial slate into an effective warrior? I know of no paradigm either in law enforcement or the military. I assume none exists amongst the weekend warriors.

Look... I am the grandson of a Glasheen who was one of the designers of the telephone switching system with only a 6th grade education. He was truly a self-made man. Did that inspiration cause my dad not to get a college engineering degree? Nope... He went to Manhattan, and then (ahem) consulted his dad on his college engineering problems when he struggled. And I in turn spent many, many years getting an advanced engineering degree. But all THREE of us understood that experience with real-world problems helped to turn classroom training into effective skills.

My "perfect paradigm" is my Goju/aikido instructor who trained as a kid in the dojo (judo, kyokushinkai, goju) and then became a green beret and subsequently a trainer of said special forces. Another good example is Rory who trained as a kid in the dojo (sosuishitsu ryu jiujitsu) and then advanced his education as a prison guard and an instructor of the same. A good musician understands the balance between practice and playing. A good martial artist understands that training, practice, and experience all count.

Thanks for the soap box. ;)

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
So this needs to be practiced realistically...we also have the psychological aspect of a baseball bat attack to deal with.

I recall one-on-one discussions with Rory where he spoke reverently about aspects of his own martial journey. In training sosuishitsu ryu, Rory was blessed with a partner whom he learned to trust, and who was on board with the idea of realistic training. They had sequences they practiced which were part of their style, possibly the same general idea as our yakusoku kumite.

When he was young enough and insane enough... he and this partner had a gentleman's agreement to attack with ever-increasing levels of force. Their personal training led to levels of martial awareness that aided him in his professional life as a prison guard. He even spoke of experiencing occasional bouts of tachypsychia - something I've only experienced in a motorcycle accident.

I've had a few such training partners in my day with enough ability AND control to turn up the volume and walk the edge of that safety cliff. One needn't be careless and stupid, such as the folks who drive motorcycles with shorts and no helmet. Your training is useless if you pick up a permanent injury along the way. But there are ways...

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:00 pm 
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For Jason (et al).

One of my favorite things to do as a teacher is to show how our martial movement is not unique to our karate styles (of doom). Sometimes seemingly "difficult" movements are no big deal on the sports playing field where big boys try to annihilate other big boys. If they can make it work there - and they can actually practice it there - then IMO we have some hope of tapping into said skills when going martial.

My sports experience is mostly track and baseball. So great... I've got the "flight" part down in "fight or flight." :lol: But seriously... I've found my body sometimes "acting without permission" in a few self-defense situations. Upon reflection, I realized that the core movement was something I picked up in an earlier sport, and was able to generalize to martial application. A simple concept is catching a ball and throwing it. I've done it tens of thousands of times. Now I can "receive" with my left, and hit with whole-body motion with my right. There's really very little difference.

Here is an example of "tenshin" in football. I spoke above about Uechi's hojoundo having 45-degree and 90-degree turns. Van spoke of moving into the blind spot of the attacker. Some of the really neat applications (e.g. setting up a blood choke from behind) come from doing a 180-degree tenshin motion. Well... I present to you a 360-degree tenshin, with two parties involved. One's trying to slam the ball carrier. The other is spinning out without even the aid of that "feeling circle arm." Although... check out how that feeling right arm "happens" in the end anyway. You don't get to see the footwork here, but trust me... the fundamentals are the same.

How to Hit & Spin to Avoid Football Tackle

Here on the football field is a great laboratory for human movement. Whenever I get athletes like this, they are soooo much easier to train.

(I'm jealous of your football beast, Van. ;))

- Bill


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