Bill Glasheen wrote:Hey, Jason!
What a wonderful response! It's as thoughtful and thought-provoking as I could have hoped for.
What else is a peanut gallery for?
Fair enough, Jason. It's probably fair to say that tai sabaki isn't a white belt concept except maybe in aikido where one starts with getting off the line of force rather than generating force. And I did mention that the moves in question were in Kanchin and Sanseiryu.
You did! Thus my qualifying statement. I might also add it's been ten years since I trained in Uechi?
That said... Did you ever give the tenshin movements in the Uechi hojoundo (beginning exercises) a second thought? What the hell are those things, and why did Uechi Kanei consider them so important that he made three (3) of them in a set of thirteen exercises?
It's been too long, Bill. Sanchin and a few movements otherwise are all I have left. Sadly, I haven't lived in an area where a Uechi dojo existed for the last decade or so. Do you have any videos to link to?
Bill Glasheen wrote:3) Do you think it's possible for a reasonably well-trained person to pull this off when under life-threatening stress?
Jason Rees wrote:3 - Yes and no. If your heart rate gets above 150, all bets are off, IMO.
Bill Glasheen wrote:I like that you get quantitative. It shows your background and shows you've been doing some reading.
That said... We must remember that in the literature, heat-rate is used as an index of neurohormonal stimulation, all other things being equal. But if someone is already engaged in a physical endeavor (as opposed to elevated heart-rate from fright), then maybe we're talking about initial conditions with a different range of psychological responses.
I was going with the premise of 'life-threatening stress,' experienced by a 'reasonably well-trained person.' If, however, you take someone who has zero 'training,' but plenty of familiarity with life-threatening stress, then they won't have the neuro-hormonal stimulant-induced problems. They'll just get physical. Take someone who has really good training at handling life-threatening stress, and the second or third time, they'll respond optimally, with fewer penalties from the chemical cocktail noted above. But a 'reasonably well-trained individual?' It's a crapshoot. Chances are, they don't know how they'll respond, and after the chemical dump that's assured in a life-threatening situation, neither do you or I.
You did what I asked and went out on a limb with a SWAG (Sophisticated Wild-Assed Guess). So have you thought about why you think this?
I like that. SWAG. I'll have to remember it.
- Is it because you're aware of deer-in-the-headlamps syndrome? Does this have anything to do with your thinking?
- Does your thinking have anything to do with substantive loss of complex motor coordination (CMC)? If so... why is there an obsession in Uechi Ryu with thrusting right up the middle when a complete loss of CMC leads to looping punches? Could it be because the choreographer thought the bad guy could be too juiced and leave the middle open for us, while we could train not to lose the ability to exploit it? In other words do you think that part of the purpose of karate do (and sanchin do) is to teach us how to retain CMC under extreme stress? (e.g. Sanchin as walking meditation)
- It's clear to me that very old arts such as battlefield jiujitsu think getting to someone's back is doable and important. Otherwise the bloodchoke from behind wouldn't be taught. So do the authors of this ancient battlefield art know something we doubters don't, or are they engaged in some wishful thinking as well?
Anyhow... thanks for getting things started, Jason!
I've experienced deer-in-the-headlights. It's no fun. A punch in the face to shake you out of it, even less so.
I think karate was taught in a different culture, one in which dealing with stress was taught differently, in a different environment. I think keeping one's cool under assault was the norm, rather than the exception, whether your profession was karate or preparing tea.
Who's a doubter? I'm very fond of rear chokes (not to mention kidney strikes and neck cranks), and I know they're effective, and that it's entirely possible to get someone to expose their back for it!
I pray for big haymakers.
It's just that it takes more than some training and throwing somebody out there. You have to get comfortable doing it, actively seek it, not lose that line of thought in a dangerous encounter, and execute it with limited CMC. That's alot of hurdles, even for 'reasonably well-trained' people.
Life begins & ends cold, naked & covered in crap.