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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:00 pm 
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Great post Bill.

Here is a good example of 'spinouts' in the greatest game of all...the beautiful game of world class soccer....

The fabulous Zinadine Zidane showing his brand of hojo undo :wink:

http://www.soccer-training-info.com/zid ... n_move.asp

Also in soccer, shoulder to shoulder tackles are allowed...and in these tackles comes the practice of shoulder hits ....steal the ball...spin and frustrate the opponent.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:

Here is a good example of 'spinouts' in the greatest game of all...the beautiful game of world class soccer....

The fabulous Zinadine Zidane showing his brand of hojo undo :wink:

Zidane Spin Move

Wow... Now THAT is footwork! Can you teach us that at camp, Van? ;)

We all understand that we're mere mortals. But if Zindane can reach the stars, maybe we can reach the top of a hill when needed.

Seriously though... Wouldn't it be fun to cross-train a bit in the dojo to pick up some better footwork? IMO it can't hurt. Anything that makes the training fun...

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:30 pm 
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Here is the move in basketball.

Advanced Basketball Techniques : Spin Moves in Basketball

Note that when he switches hands with the ball, he isn't just avoiding the "carry". He also puts his "feeling" arm (a.k.a. wauke) towards the player. It's the same arm (the leading arm) we use in Uechi's tenshin movements.

Watch the ever-so-subtle contact arm.

Deron Williams Spin Move

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:24 am 
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Good stuff, Bill. I guess we can say that footwork/spinouts are a way to avoid having to contest the enemy's power.

We spoke of this before, but when Wes Tasker visited my dojo once, he showed some brilliant footwork out of his 'Pekiti Tirsia' that always placed him in a position of advantage and always behind an opponent.

I agree, we should be practicing more of it in all that we do in two men sets.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:29 am 
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I'm really enjoying your discussions, Jason. You obviously show a lot of consideration on the topic.

If I didn’t enjoy it, I wouldn’t be here. :D That said, between you and Van, I feel entirely outclassed. At least what you and Van post is useful. :lol:

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My oldest son is taking a college freshman course in logic. He often consults with me on his problem sets, which I absolutely love. There are many brain-twisters in the problems, and a lot of intentional misleads and redirections.

Which leads me (respectfully) to accuse you of a false argument below.
I've seen this argument over and over again on our myriad Forums discussions. Van uses it a lot, but I give him a pass. Why? Because his modus operendum is to shake people's core beliefs with piss-your-pants scenarios. Better Van cause someone to confront false gods in the safe confines of a Forums discussion than to face it way too late at the moment of truth. If you don't cling to false beliefs, then you don't take Van's bait. If you do...

What you do here is to pit the extremes of classroom training with zero life experience against experience with zero classroom training. You conclude that the lifetime experience leads to 'optimal' performance and the classroom training leads to "a crapshoot." Your argument falls apart in two places: 1) my "reasonably well-trained person" you refer to above doesn't compare to your stereotype classroom warrior, and 2) you've presented no evidence that suggests that someone with "zero training" but a few really bad experiences is going to "respond optimally." What kind of spontaneous generation epiphany turns a blank martial slate into an effective warrior? I know of no paradigm either in law enforcement or the military. I assume none exists amongst the weekend warriors.


That’s the clincher, Bill. ‘Reasonably well-trained person’ is a loaded, subjective term. For me, it means they’ve got a moderate amount of training, maybe taking a martial arts class two days a week with a good instructor, maybe working it on their own one to two days a week, and they've been doing it for five years.

Good instruction is also subjective. What’s good to somebody going to a McDojo is crap to a purist working out in a garage with someone (a former golden-gloves boxer and free-style karate tournament world-circuit winner) giving two-hour classes for free. A Marine with a black belt in the MCMA (God help me, I probably screwed up that acronym) style would probably laugh at a high-ranking Capoeirista (probably messed that up, too). I’ve seen a second-degree black belt in TKD who took out 4 would-be muggers at one time on his pizza delivery job, and a second-degree black belt (again, TKD) whose face was unrecognizable SPAK (Status-Post A$$-Kicking) thanks to a single jerk at a bar.

What do I mean by ‘respond optimally?’ I mean a little fist fight isn’t going to send their fight-or-flight through the roof. They’re not going to freeze at the first sign that something’s going to go down. They’re not questioning whether they should do something until it’s already happening and they’re behind the curve. They just act. Maybe not skillfully, but skill that’s unreliable is no help at all.

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My "perfect paradigm" is my Goju/aikido instructor who trained as a kid in the dojo (judo, kyokushinkai, goju) and then became a green beret and subsequently a trainer of said special forces. Another good example is Rory who trained as a kid in the dojo (sosuishitsu ryu jiujitsu) and then advanced his education as a prison guard and an instructor of the same. A good musician understands the balance between practice and playing. A good martial artist understands that training, practice, and experience all count.


All fine examples of a merging of classroom and real-life experience producing the ‘perfect package.’ But by and large, real-life experience and classroom experience are rarely exemplified in a single person. When they do, it is not in someone ‘moderately-well trained.’ Not by my definition.

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Thanks for the soap box.


It’s your soapbox, Bill. Thanks for letting me borrow it from time to time. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:00 am 
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I have a way I like to set up the rear naked choke while standing by using a classic Uechi tenshin movement. Invariably I'm using my right arm to circle around the opponent's right arm - whether or not he's attacking with it - in the "block" part of the turn, block, kick technique. I use the kick essentially to break the person's balance from behind by putting my foot in the back of their knee.

I can't find anyone who does this from a standing position on film. Damn grapplers... all they know how to do is fight on a mat. :lol: But often if you squint your eyes and look, they're essentially doing the exact same thing.

Watch this fellow start from a supine position, with both people face to face. It's the same belly-to-belly beginning orientation as two stand-up fighters, albeit with a 90-degree twist. Then he circles the arm, gets the elbow set up around the neck, shifts his body around, and goes right into the RNC. It's the same damn thing!

JEFF GLOVER - His Favorite Rear Naked Choke Set-up

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Some Pekiti Tirsia basic footwork...and force multiplier...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-htOA3egYc

Wes Tasker is the man to watch in this.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:41 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jse6aKke ... =fvwp&NR=1

This is the basic triangle footwork partner drill that Wes Tasker showed us at our dojo.

Great practice.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:00 am 
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Good stuff, Van! You're very lucky to have spent time with Wes. I've known him through camp for at least a decade now. Even as a kid his brain was a sponge for all things martial. These days he seems to have settled into the Filipino world.

What comes across loud and clear is the difference between the Filipino and the Macho karate (rockem sockem robot) mindset. As the instructor said in your first link, all the conditioning in the world does no good when the attack is with a blade. And I've done just enough JKD, knife, and stick work Raffi to appreciate that. (Love the drills Raffi teaches! 8) ) So to those who claim you can't move under extreme stress, well what they're saying under these conditions is you might as well give up. You either get off the line of force of a blade, or you become an involuntary blood donor. Me? I'm a realist when contemplating someone with a blade. I know I'll probably get cut, but that doesn't mean I won't try to improve my odds.

Same goes with empty hand, although to a lesser extent. There's more margin for error.

When I look at those drills that you showed, it harks of some of the foot pattern work that George has in his Uechiryu Karatedo book. I still teach some of those stepping drills. Between the steps at all angles and the myriad shifts, we're all basically working on the same material. It's nice to see another artist's take on the matter.

I believe there's a nice balance between being conditioned just enough and being good enough with the footwork not to have to use it.

More in a bit.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:33 am 
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Van

I thought I'd bring up a few points and solicit your thoughts. :)

In trying to teach the art of "getting on someone's back" with the tenshin move, I recently noted how I did the motion vs. how my new students attempted to do the same. Invariably I noted how much closer I was vs. the students who first attempted it. What appeared very easy when I did it was much more difficult and indirect with students who essentially were trying to "walk around" the person. The geometry involved was more straight-line with my execution, and more like a slalom move with the newer students.

With that in mind, I thought I'd bring out a few things in the videos and posts from this thread.

Van Canna wrote:
Bill mentions being safe in the eye of the storm…well said…I teach to attack just as the opponent enters your space, attempting to 'short stop' his swing…

How to Hit & Spin to Avoid Football Tackle wrote:
We want him to initiate contact first of all, and then we want him to spin off the tackler before the tackler can make the wrap-up.

Deron Williams Spin Move wrote:
Get the contact, then spin once he has contact.

By the way, the "contact" mentioned in the two videos often either started with or evolved to the same leading arm used in Uechi's tenshin movements. Go figure!

Take it away, Van!

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:26 pm 
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Sorry Bill, I posted the following mistakenly on my forum:



About Wes Tasker, Bill.

Yes _he is seen as a Filipino system's Guru by many other top practitioners.

The interesting thing he showed at our dojo was that all the stepping and resulting techniques are taught the same way, whether armed or unarmed.

So what he does/did with a blade in his hands, he can do without the blade and still deliver extremely powerful blows characterized by whipping action. Amazing to see him work.

Right you are about George's 'eight form' extremely useful practice in learning avoidance maneuvers.

Years back, I had the pleasure of watching the great Andre Tippet fight Billy Blanks in a tournament. Andre was using the concept of anticipation of an opponent's move such as star players in games such as football, soccer and other contact sports will use as well. There are hard lessons to learn there for anyone who fixates on first blocking an attack before countering…thus allowing an opponent to 'get off first' even though 'the when did the fight really start' should be apparent.

This is illustrated in the video clip of the pimp who gets annihilated by the karate guy just as he crowds his space preparatory to hit or 'shoot'_

Thus...
Bill Glasheen wrote:
How to Hit & Spin to Avoid Football Tackle wrote:
We want him to initiate contact first of all, and then we want him to spin off the tackler before the tackler can make the wrap-up.

Deron Williams Spin Move wrote:
Get the contact, then spin once he has contact.
...is brilliant thinking.

This approximates my approach to the typical bat swing we are likely to face on the streets.

AIKIDO VERSUS BASEBALL BAT

The footwork is exactly what we have been discussing.

What I do a bit differently is to charge in slamming against his left shoulder with my right shoulder and sweeping arm as I short stop the swing and begin to spin…also making sure my left arm is in a strong sanchin position with elbow down one fist distance from my rib cage...also in position to 'answer the phone' ...

The idea being you have to move into kissing range to avoid that bat's swing against any part of the body, hands/arms/legs/sides etc.

Some would say…why not just punch him in the face as he starts to come in?

And what makes one think that a punch under stress will connect properly on target, and that it will achieve one shot stoppage? Some attackers are very resilient.

And the punching will not stop the swing keeping you in the line of fire and leaving the opponent still armed with a bat and mad as hell.

I find that safer for me if the opponent decides to swing low at my legs.

Here is another 'spin' I like.

Taekwondo VS Street Fighter (Real Fight)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm 
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I edited Van's post so it presents as he intended.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:35 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
This approximates my approach to the typical bat swing we are likely to face on the streets.

AIKIDO VERSUS BASEBALL BAT

The footwork is exactly what we have been discussing.

Bingo!

You can imagine how easy that footwork was for me to learn after having done Uechi tenshin. What he does well is first to head straight to the axis of the rotational force where it is safe, and then to use that leg energy to throw his opponent (as opposed to the illusion of using upper body strength to accomplish the same).

You can imagine how frustrated I get when I tell a Uechika that THIS is the best use of tenshin stepping... and they tell you you're wrong because their teacher told them it was for an attack from a 90 degree angle. You know... We ALWAYS face our bad guys at 90 degrees, right? :lol: Sorry... I had to get that off my chest. I feel better now. :)

By the way, do you see the Sanseiryu-like stepping (direction changes in horse stance) with the shihonage technique? The origin of that move by the way is in swordsmanship. First disembowel and then decapitate. Only instead of cutting with a sword, you cut with the person's arm - as if their forearm is the sword. In this case they just happen to be holding on to a bat.

It seems all the arts share the same good ideas.

Van Canna wrote:
Here is another 'spin' I like.

Taekwondo VS Street Fighter (Real Fight)

Ah well... Good for Hollywood, and for people who leave their faces open. :lol:

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Let's watch some more footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnLbkmZJyxY

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Like the footwork. OTOH, I think there is some delusion involved in the caption: "In this clip Steve is attempting to hit me with full force." Well, that might be true! But in that case we really need somebody who can make a better attempt. Somebody should make "safety bats" for this kind of training, if they don't already. I know there are foam swords and such, but a baseball bat attack is a common thing, and bats have a certain heft (though different depending on what they're made of).

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