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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:14 am 
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Glenn wrote:
That makes sense Van. The odds of actually needing to use the skills on a bad guy is very remote these days, while the continued practice over an extended period of time that is required to build up the skills opens up plenty of opportunity for a serious accidental or wear-and-tear injury to occur.


There are many things we do in life which have no direct and obvious benefit. Nobody studies iaido to ward off the ronin.

Firearms? There's an argument used by many for gun control. Allegedly more innocent people are killed unintentionally by careless gun owners than are bad guys by said gun owners. Maybe... and maybe not. But is that the point?

Long-term martial arts practitioners do what they do because they enjoy that practice. It's a recreational activity which happens to have a potential practical benefit.

There are many more marginally practical benefits:

  • Engaging in an activity which stimulates us - both mentally and physically. Trust me on this one; it's the biggest reason I'm here. Running sux. Reading Plato gets old. Doing martial arts with other insane people is fun.
    ...
  • Exercising our right to self-defense and/or to own martial equipment (including but not limited to firearms).
    ...
  • Learning about human behavior and human conflict.
    ...
  • Learning to face - and even flirt with - our fears.

Life is full of high-risk/high-reward activities. Some people are drawn to them. Because there is a BIG downside is sometimes part of the whole thrill of being there in the first place. This isn't just the domain of "martial morons." It's also the domain of the risk takers who move and shape society. Should we be surprised that some of the founders of Tesla motors were killed in a private plane flying accident? (Same with JFK Jr.)

Most on the outside don't get it. That I acknowledge.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:50 am 
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Braveheart wrote:
All men die, not all men really live

Although to be fair, most live in their own ways. My wife and parents have certainly never understood my enthusiasm for the martial arts, but I have never understood some of their interests either, my dad's fondness for motorcycles and ATVs for example.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:21 am 
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All true allright...it is just sad that's all.

Just living a life is a risk unto itself...and then we are shocked to realize who the real enemies are that will ambush us. :o

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:38 am 
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My daughter gave me another opportunity to reinforce gun safety last night. She and I really hadn't had a chance to spend much time together lately, and I said I was going to clean the guns. She asked me to show her how.

I went to the gun safe, emptied the primary home defense rifle and handgun, cleared the others, took all the guns out and then locked the safe. Then she was allowed to come in. She didn't touch anything. :D God, I'm doing something right. We went over the rules, like a mantra:

1. If we see a gun, don't touch. Get an adult.

I told her she should get her mom, as I didn't know if I counted. She laughed.

2. Mom and dad will let you touch them safely.

But...

3. All guns are loaded.

So I let her show me how she checked the kids' rifle to make sure it wasn't loaded. She was a pro. And then I showed her how to check the rest of them. She doesn't have the strength yet to clear my handguns. Mommy's on the other hand...

4. Never point them at anyone or anything you wouldn't shoot.

We sat side-by-side, and all barrels pointed to the far wall, made of cinderblock. She diligently cleaned the kids' rifle and her mom's handgun, and asked me to check her work afterwards.

5. Never touch the trigger until you're going to use it.

No need to touch the triggers but one during takedown. She knows how to function check a rifle and a handgun afterwards. That's what the big bucket of sand is for.

6. Bullets go through people and things, and through people and things (a reminder that it can go through a wall and hurt someone behind that wall).

I was proud of her. She's eight. I do this with my boys, too. Safety, safety, safety. I refuse to become a statistic, and there's no point in doing it if you're doing it wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Thank you, Jason. This is the reason why I start a thread like this.

Wish I was there to watch...

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:29 pm 
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Thank you Jason, what you write should be published in national magazines.

Even us [experts] must be reminded now and again of proper handling safeties of these 'unfriendly friends' that can turn into implacable enemies in an instant.

Same with our assumed 'safe' martial arts training.

Another very bad complication of not being as serious as you are about gun safety and education in the family...is for many people to be hit with criminal charges, should a gun be accessed, fired, etc. by a family member.

In Mass, we have a law that requires all guns to be trigger locked, if not in safes or under your direct control.

I have investigated some horrendous incidents involving minors accessing guns in the house, including one 14 year old kid, who brought a .357 magnum revolver to a friends' gathering and began to show them how to play 'Russian Roulette' with dire consequences.

Another kid who shot his friend in the brain with a pellet gun.

BTW...you do have an umbrella liability policy?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Thanks, Bill and Van.

I've read of incidents where trigger locks failed to prevent guns from firing, with disastrous results. I don't trust them, and none of my firearms have them. Relying on one just doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, actually, I do. My insurance company charges me only a small fee, alongside my recreational vehicle, car, homeowner's, etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:08 am 
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If may use the topic to relay an anecdote:

I was bird hunting with my dad for the first time as a kid and we were heading through some unusually dense brush. My dad turned to me and said "Watch the safety on your shotgun, it can get switched by a branch...."

And knowing all the safety my dad had taught me and how non-gun-safety oriented my mom was I was like "I know I know!! I alread--"

"It can throw off your shot if you go to throw the safety and it's already switched," said my dad.

:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:06 am 
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Oh well :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:32 am 
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Jason,

I don't know what type locks you mean that would not prevent a gun to fire...the ones I use ...no way could that happen.

Image

in any case, a gun safe is much better :)

Be sure your umbrella has coverage for intentional acts if for protection of persons or property.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:34 am 
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I agree that a gun safe is much better. A good one can be carried from room to room, and opened in a second (literally) without need of a key or fine motor coordination.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Van, I double-checked, and yeah, I'm covered. I got that after the last time you mentioned it on these boards. 8) The incidents I read about involved loaded guns with trigger locks firing if they were dropped or struck.

I don't really know what to say about TSD's anecdote. In the field up here we generally use an 'Alaskan safety,' ie; no round in the chamber, safety off.

I do use a safe. It's fire-proof and big enough to hold everything I have and everything I'm likely to get. I'm saving up for one of those small ones with fingerprint recognition.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Jason,

The thing is to never/never try to trigger lock a loaded gun. Trigger locks were designed for unloaded, stored firearms, not under the immediate control of the owner.

As to a loaded gun for home defense that must be readily available to fire and easy to get to from any room you may happen to be, yet it must be made safe from any child in the house or other persons who might get to it…then a portable safe the type Bill describes, is a good bet…especially when you can have it at your bedside during the night.

Home invasions are terribly quick and ruthless …and some people even with a loaded gun next to them have been caught by surprise and unable to use it.

The Alaskan field carry is a good 0ne…like 'condition three' in a 1911 carry.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Now I remember your getting an umbrella...good move...even defensive action of empty hands martial arts nature, fit the concept of coverage vs. denial of coverage, unless specifically covered by a policy like the umbrella...with no defense or indemnity coverage at all under a typical homeowner's liability policy. Another very important thing to get...that gets not much attention by the typical, denial plagued, average karate-ka.

And always remember to not say much of anything to investigating officers after a defensive event...train to control the tongue through the 'fog' with...'I was in fear of my life and I defended myself'

Yes, but did you hit him? I was just defending myself....

But did you shoot him? I was just defending myself...

Yes but did punch or kick him? I was just defending myself...

Yes but how did you defend yourself? I was just defending myself...

Yes but you need to answer our questions and give a 'report' ...I was just defending myself and will be glad to provide more details after I have had a chance to speak with my attorney. I am invoking the right to remain silent, officer.

Hard to do as the 'blabber' will be all controlling without realizing it...train to put fingers to your mouth and grab the lips and twist.

What you say...will be be the deciding factor on whether there will be a criminal charge and or a denial of coverage by your insurance company. What goes down in the police report initially...will be written in stone.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:34 pm 
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I don't have a safe yet for my room. There are plenty of incidents involving weapons people brought to bear on people with guns faster than the gun-wielder could draw, enough to give me confidence in another skill that I have, another tool at the bedside I'm not so worried about the kids getting ahold of.

A few weeks after the incident with that phoned death threat, I had to make the decision of which threat was greater: that from without, or that from within. I know what I was doing at the time was not the wisest course. So for now the only safe I have is the only place my firearms are stored. It won't be too much longer.

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