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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:06 am 
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See if you can guess the posture.

Big Papi ejected, slams bat against dugout phone

And yes... this is a legit example of it. You see echoes of the posture in Tsukenshitahaku no sai and Hamahiga no tonfa.

If you're wondering why Ortiz got so emotionally hijacked, look very carefully at the pitch pattern. They had no intention of giving a strike. In fact none of the six pitches were strikes. But just before the video clip where you see Papi backing out of the batters box even before the ball is released, a pitch was thrown at his face. Look at the box that shows the location of pitches, and see pitch 3. That's when the adrenaline started flowing.

If you've never had a 95 mph fastball thrown at your head, then you just wouldn't understand. We're programmed this way for a reason.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:30 am 
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OK, since I do not follow baseball at all I had to figure out who you wanted us to look at. At first I thought you wanted us to see something the batter, Ortiz, was doing, until I realized that "Pedroia" mentioned in the subject line is someone else who was the focus of the question. Fortunately the clip briefly shows his name on his back, and everything became clear. Pedroia does a version of the "answer the phone" protective posture in response to Ortiz assault of the phone, i.e. one interpretation of what the right hand does during the first elbow strike in Seisan and during Seisan jumpback. Very common boxer protective posture as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:35 am 
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Bit disappointed , thought I was going to see someone finally jumping a baseball bat in real life :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:58 am 
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Stryke wrote:
Bit disappointed , thought I was going to see someone finally jumping a baseball bat in real life :lol: :lol:

Touche! :lol:

I'll take the dojo queen with a shinai over an angry David Ortiz with a baseball bat any day. If it's not apparent from the video, he is one big, massive, and powerful human being.

Image

And he has the heart of a lion. If he knew how to fight, he'd be deadly.

Glenn wrote:
At first I thought you wanted us to see something the batter, Ortiz, was doing, until I realized that "Pedroia" mentioned in the subject line is someone else who was the focus of the question.

Per Marcus's joke (long story) and my comment above... You can't really have a legit reason to expect a defensive posture without a credible threat.

David Ortiz going postal with bat on a dugout phone with debris flying is reason to believe your head is in danger.

Image

A guy with white pajamas bearing bamboo is not. God knows my crazy Japanese instructor of Nippon Shorin Ken broke a few of those across my abdomen. I wasn't fond of his methods, but I survived.

Glenn wrote:
Pedroia does a version of the "answer the phone" protective posture in response to Ortiz assault of the phone, i.e. one interpretation of what the right hand does during the first elbow strike in Seisan and during Seisan jumpback. Very common boxer protective posture as well.

Indeed.

Image

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:15 am 
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Couldn't resist the jest

always good to draw the connection of reflexive cover, and correlate the postural cover in Kata

When we augment our instinct instead of combating it we exponentially improve our chances imho


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:18 am 
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Slightly off topic, but I was looking for some clips of Seisan that showed this posture well and came across this side-by-side comparison of Goju Seisan and Uechi Seisan, with Dana Sheets demonstrating the Uechi Seisan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94efEuFa9Vc

On the one hand these two styles have similar roots and that comes through in some parts, on the other hand Seisan is a common symbolic kata name so we cannot expect two Seisan from different styles to automatically be related. Still, it is interesting to see the two together like this.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:36 am 
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Glenn wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I was looking for some clips of Seisan that showed this posture well and came across this side-by-side comparison of Goju Seisan and Uechi Seisan, with Dana Sheets demonstrating the Uechi Seisan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94efEuFa9Vc

On the one hand these two styles have similar roots and that comes through in some parts, on the other hand Seisan is a common symbolic kata name so we cannot expect two Seisan from different styles to automatically be related. Still, it is interesting to see the two together like this.

First... I know Dana Sheets very well. She is an excellent martial artist and unique human being.

Once upon a time I could do both these kata. The similarities are more than passing. The whole reason why I studied Goju is because Steven King - a master of Goju - had Kanei Uechi's kyohon and wanted to learn Uechi. At the end of the day I learned more from him than he from me. Dr. King had the street cred as well. He was in special forces. His mixed martial background (judo, Kyokushinkai, Goju, aikido, and kobudo) served him well.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:12 am 
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It is too bad Dana does not participate on the forums any more, I always found her discussions and perspectives enlightening.

Regarding Marcus' comment, I have been watching the episodes of the Starz series Spartacus: Gods of the Arena and the show's fight coordinators liked to have the gladiators lift up the front leg to avoid strikes to the leg with spears (and sometimes swords), a simple smooth up and down motion with the leg that makes sense for avoiding a single quick strike and comes across well on screen.

See for example 0:39 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2goYjmvBo (although I think it comes across better with longer range weapons such as a spear than with a close range sword)

To me that makes more sense than the complex Uechi jumpback for avoiding a strike to the leg with a weapon. For the Uechi jumpback your interpretation of it as a counter to the iron broom double leg sweep seems to work better.

As an aside, check out the training the participants in the show went through...and the protective moves Cynthia Addai-Robinson uses at 0:48-0:49 brings us back to what started this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz0wYH6g8OM

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:27 am 
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I don't see any move in the Katas as avoidance, I think there responses to hapv and the attack is already happening.

I don't believe movement and avoidance patterns were codified , bit likely taken as a given

But of course it can be done that way

I see the jump back as a drag back , and see the jump as largely symbolic, going forwards backwards


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Personally I have never been a fan of the idea that kata techniques keep things hidden. The goal of training, any training including kata, is to improve technique, build muscle memory, and optimize timing in order to improve your chances of a better outcome when you need it. Having the kata move you in ways opposite of those ultimate goals are not going to accomplish any of that as you will have to think too much about how to do it correctly in an already stressful situation. So the premise that when going backwards in the kata you would really go forward in a fight makes no sense to me. If your strategy is to always be going forward in a fight, then that is how you should train.

I can think of no other comparable activity (any sport for example) that has you learn a component of it by repeatedly doing it in reverse, or any other way then how the trainers want you to do it when you need it. In my mind, if any kata really is doing that then it should be dropped from the curriculum. But then again, I am biased towards what works for me, maybe some can make that whole going forwards backwards idea work.

At any rate, I do not see anything in the kata as symbolic, it all has function. Or at least it should. To me a more important consideration is whether Seisan even originally had a jump in that sequence, that little detail can definitely change the functional interpretation of its application.

Likewise, I doubt the combatants of old who came up with this stuff really took anything as given with their training, including movement and avoidance. Too much was riding on it and they would have worked to perfect everything in their toolkit...well, the successful ones at least! :D

Regarding avoidance, if done correctly getting an opponent to miss his target can set you up in a good position to inflict some damage before he can recover, so I would not discount it too quickly. Personally that is my interpretation of the jumpback and following forward attack sequence that ends Seisan, so I prefer to not jump very far back so as to be in a better attack position, as opposed to some I have known who will place a stick or other item a ways back on the floor to jump over with the intent of maximizing how far back they jump and then how far forward they jump in to attack.

No disrespect intended to anyone who trains that way, or with anything else I have said above, there is plenty of room for differences in interpretation and opinion. Mine are just where I am at the moment.

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Last edited by Glenn on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:34 pm 
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Each to there own Glen , I didn't mean what you attributed to me , in lots of ways we agree

The backwards bit I'm focusing on the drag, because I'm connected already retreating is not involved, think of Thai clinch etc were the opponent becomes a rag doll. You can drag spin in any direction.

For the record I don't jump , therefore I see it as an additional symbolism, as in shotokan


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
I don't see any move in the Katas as avoidance, I think there responses to hapv and the attack is already happening.

Not sure what you mean by this, Marcus.

A flinch is what it is. A martial move that incorporates a flinch is the best way to configure custom brain wiring on top of hard-wired, primal responses. You probably agree with me on that.

Stryke wrote:
I see the jump back as a drag back , and see the jump as largely symbolic, going forwards backwards

Tomoyose Ryuko once told me that the original Seisan did not have a jump. Rather you stepped back and then stepped forward. The jump was just adding some show to the go.

When doing the Official Seisan Bunkai Jump TM in my dojo, I tell people *not* to jump. As Takamiyagi and Miyagi would tell me. "Kata is kata and application is application." We do a very nice blend with an attacker that puts you smack in their business before they know what has happened. And we do not jump *back*; we in fact bait someone into being too close so there's no need to leap forward. It works well.

Lifting the legs - particularly the first leg lift - can also be about attacker manipulation. So just as you intentionally and deliberately step *back* in the early part of Seiryu kata to extend someone's arm (so you can hyper-extend it), so too might you shift back while lifting the front leg so you pull someone's leg out from underneath them. These kinds of applications are quite different from the Official Bunkai TM.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Simply Bill I mean I'm either flinching or entering im at no time doing footwork timing or evasion , but am caught in a hapv moment and loosing.

Timing relationship work is best done with a partner

Of anyone has examples of the Seisan jumpback that aren't dodging id be very interested

Put another way contact must already be occurring, otherwise you're not really doing an application


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
Each to there own Glen , I didn't mean what you attributed to me , in lots of ways we agree

Yeah I was not quite sure what you meant by going forwards backwards. But as I have had a couple teachers tell me that going backwards in the kata really means going forward I decided to take it in that direction. Sorry if I misattributed to you.

Stryke wrote:
For the record I don't jump

The older I get the less I jump too, except when the wife calls of course. :D Actually I prefer the non-jump interpretation to Seisan, I feel I can do more with it.

On the other hand, Richard Kim in Weaponless Warriors (and other authors) tells this story about Chotoku Kyan and his Shorin Ryu Seisan
Richard Kim wrote:
If one should ever visit Katena and look at the area where Kyan had operated his dojo, one would see that it was near Hisabashi bridge. According to stories handed down, Kyan practiced jumping from a barge anchored below the bridge and was able to jump backward up and over onto the bridge. He did this while practicing seisan

If nothing else I suppose if one needed to get away then such a skill would allow you to do so without turning your back on your opponents.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:19 am 
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Glenn wrote:
I have had a couple teachers tell me that going backwards in the kata really means going forward

I don't ascribe to this.

In every place in kata I'm going backwards, I can find clear offensive reasons for doing so. This works really well in a grabbing/grappling situation. It's not about avoidance; it's usually about manipulating your partner.

A good way for instance to think of ukemi is the art of putting yourself in a better position. Sometimes you fall or roll because to do so puts you where you want to be. And sometimes the fall is an attack.

To ascribe to extreme positions with "never" and "always" just doesn't make sense to me. It makes you too predictable, and it limits "Plan B" alternatives.

And finally... flinching back happens - in spite of our best conscious effort to do otherwise. Fighting what the primal brain makes you do can cause you to freeze. How you blend the unconscious into a conscious advantage is where the art comes in.

- Bill


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