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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:26 am 
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MikeK wrote:
It's really not that he's saying it about Wing Chun, but that he's saying it about his art. 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNeNyAD99qw



Heck sounds familiar To some folks I know :lol:

Honestly he's refreshing , but I cringe a little with how he's trying to help because its familiar , But his points are valid

I have no doubt he has the best intentions , but in my experience its not an effective way to generate an audience, you can lead a horse to water and all that.

Politics is human ..... I have learnt when you say your way ***** this is better , all anyone hears is your way *****

I must be getting old.....


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:09 am 
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'delete' - sorry, don't feel comfortable with the way my post might be taken.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:12 am 
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There are good lineages and bad lineages in Wing Chun, but to know the difference you have to experience them. Take Sticking hands. In a good lineage you will be led by the nose, you will be shown lots and lots of drills with little subleties in them before you ever try to do it live with a proper opponent. In a bad lineage they just leave you to get on with it :oops:
I've done both so I know.....and it was the same with my last teacher. We had both gone through the same thing, training hard, private lessons etc and got nowhere, been told to do your form and you will just get better etc.....then he went to Gary Lam in the States, and basically got shown ten times as much as his previous teacher had shown him.in fact when he got back to the UK he beat his teacher easily in sticking hands ( not done in a nasty way though)...........so, with this guy I dunno.
one thing that I only learnt in the past few years was concerning Bruce Lee he was taught by Wong Sheung Leung but only learnt up to the second form, now people assume he didn't know that much, because they think Wing chun is form based, it isn't it is based on lots of little sub sets of knowledge and in the WSL lineage you learn sticking hands, the first two forms and the wooden dummy together.fact is you only need the understanding of the two forms and you don't need to practice them,except maybe to remind you what you are doing.
Now in a bad lineage they make a big deal out of the forms...basically because they don't know anything else. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:05 pm 
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Hokie_PhD wrote:
But is what he trying to say so bad?

What I hear him saying is that everyone needs to make their Wing Chun (and by extension martial art) their own. To me that doesn't sound bad. Now, I'm not sure about the video as I know nothing about him, or the Wing Chun community and how they're received it.

It seems to me he's really saying things I've seen here for years and that's we adapt our art to us. So is this right, or am I missing something?


Nope, you're not missing anything, and what he's saying isn't bad at all. I'm a firm believer in shu-ha-ri, or at least the definition of it as presented by Rob Redmond.
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/ ... ependence/

A few reasons I'm using Mr. Izzo's videos is that I pretty much agree with him and his approach, that he practices Wing Chun which is public about it's feuds with "heretics" (and any WC practitioner outside your lineage is a potential heretic) [karate has these feuds but is quieter about it] and that he's willing to show on video where his art could fail without tossing away his art.
So it's not so much about the Wing Chun community but they just happen to be the art that Mr. Izzo belongs to.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:14 pm 
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Stryke wrote:
Honestly he's refreshing , but I cringe a little with how he's trying to help because its familiar , But his points are valid

I have no doubt he has the best intentions , but in my experience its not an effective way to generate an audience, you can lead a horse to water and all that.


We've been there before haven't we? 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNeNyAD9 ... cr-VPCl0DQ

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:33 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
Hokie_PhD wrote:
But is what he trying to say so bad?

What I hear him saying is that everyone needs to make their Wing Chun (and by extension martial art) their own. To me that doesn't sound bad. Now, I'm not sure about the video as I know nothing about him, or the Wing Chun community and how they're received it.

It seems to me he's really saying things I've seen here for years and that's we adapt our art to us. So is this right, or am I missing something?


Nope, you're not missing anything, and what he's saying isn't bad at all. I'm a firm believer in shu-ha-ri, or at least the definition of it as presented by Rob Redmond.
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/ ... ependence/

A few reasons I'm using Mr. Izzo's videos is that I pretty much agree with him and his approach, that he practices Wing Chun which is public about it's feuds with "heretics" (and any WC practitioner outside your lineage is a potential heretic) [karate has these feuds but is quieter about it] and that he's willing to show on video where his art could fail without tossing away his art.
So it's not so much about the Wing Chun community but they just happen to be the art that Mr. Izzo belongs to.



I guess that's the other part, in that he's exposing a "feud" in public which many can see as bad form or outright not acceptable. I'm not senior enough to feel I have a right to publicly question anyone other than for information. I'm not sure of his rank, but it would seem that he's set himself up in a dangerous place. On one side the squeaky wheel gets the great, on the other it might not be the grease he wants.

I guess i look at things a bit differently than him. I'll ask things to learn. I'll ask things to question something for understanding if I don't think it's clear. And I'll comment and offer my opinions, and what I've learned. But I won't show disrespect, or challenge others especially those much more senior than me in this way. So I guess to me, I say kudos to him for bringing out a concern, but maybe also a boo for tact, and grace.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Hi Hokie,
Feuds in martial arts are well known, especially these days, and especially in arts like Wing Chun for various reasons. So he's not exposing anything that hasn't already been going on for decades.

Quote:
I'm not senior enough to feel I have a right to publicly question anyone other than for information.

Stick around long enough and you'll get there. Nothing wrong with questioning an instructor publicly why they do something, it's on them to support why and what they're doing. And in the end it's all information. 8)

Quote:
I'm not sure of his rank,...

His rank only matters within his school or places that may recognize his rank. Martial arts rank is really only meaningful within a very small group.
But knowledge is something else altogether. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:08 pm 
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MikeK wrote:
Hi Hokie,
Feuds in martial arts are well known, especially these days, and especially in arts like Wing Chun for various reasons. So he's not exposing anything that hasn't already been going on for decades.

Quote:
I'm not senior enough to feel I have a right to publicly question anyone other than for information.

Stick around long enough and you'll get there. Nothing wrong with questioning an instructor publicly why they do something, it's on them to support why and what they're doing. And in the end it's all information. 8)

Quote:
I'm not sure of his rank,...

His rank only matters within his school or places that may recognize his rank. Martial arts rank is really only meaningful within a very small group.
But knowledge is something else altogether. :)



Thanks I used to be very involved then grad school got in the way. I moved and my old account wasn't accessible because I forgot my password and didn't have the e-mail I registered with anymore.


I only mentioned rank in that I question where he is in their system. My guess would be the equalivant of 1 to 3 Dan.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Izzo has 13 or so years of training.

Here's another of his videos that shows the experience.

In the first part Danny Horgan looks sloppy but still looks like more than a handful, while Izzo gets hit but maintains much of his structure. Without which I think Horgan would have rolled over him.

In the second part, the five step drill, watch Izzo and how many responses he answers with, while Horgan, who only has three years, responds with the same thing over and over. So it's not about rank but watching what experience the person brings to the table.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K1_oEeMKY6c

Boy this is making it sound like I'm starting the Dom Izzo fan club. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Izzo has 13 or so years of training.

Here's another of his videos that shows the experience.

In the first part Danny Horgan looks sloppy but still looks like more than a handful, while Izzo gets hit but maintains much of his structure. Without which I think Horgan would have rolled over him.

In the second part, the five step drill, watch Izzo and how many responses he answers with, while Horgan, who only has three years, responds with the same thing over and over. So it's not about rank but watching what experience the person brings to the table.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K1_oEeMKY6c

Boy this is making it sound like I'm starting the Dom Izzo fan club. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:06 am 
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Rob Redmonds take on shu ha ri is golden

Quote:
Boy this is making it sound like I'm starting the Dom Izzo fan club. :lol:


I like his take on a lot of levels , fighting form disadvantage is a no brainer , but not that many do it

I wish folks could leave out the superman vs batman discussions though :lol:

I don't think questioning seniors is the real issue with these heresy wars, although it obviously will get you ostracised if you piss folks off , I think the big problem lies with the students who accept everything from a higher rank as gospel , but dismiss knowledge that is not from the official source , when you get real innovation ahead of the curve , the pyramid insists the nails be hammered back down , and sometimes eventually plucked out.

But those that make this stuff work will always find a way to make it work, just there's less of them than most think.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:11 pm 
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I can't say that
I'm very impressed with his Chi Sau, it looks like beginners stuff to me. I remember when I did Tai Chi there was a form of pushing hands called " 9 palaces" it looks a lot like that. With Wing chun, firstly Chi Sau is an exercise, second it has structure. you should be moving from one perfect structure to another. That just looks like slop. Fighting from a disadvantaged position is a good idea, but the way he does it is taken to a nonsense level.he is padding things out that he hasn't been shown , making things up to allow for his own shortcomings.
I think what you are seeing here is someone who hasn't been shown the real deal and is filling in his own blanks......been there,done that :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:54 am 
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But what happens when one of the parties doesn't play Chi Sau properly, like the big red headed kid? What would that look like?

And what is the "real deal" in any martial art, is there really a "real deal" or just what a person does? Is there a real deal Tai Chi Chuan, Uechi, Shotokan or Wing Chun, or just different ways of doing something?
For Wing Chun one version of the real deal would be Yim Wing Chun and Ng Moy, but what if they were mythical?
http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/0 ... wing-chun/

And don't forget, many famous people have made things up to allow for their own shortcomings, it's all part of living and doing. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:22 am 
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Ok " The Real Deal" what is it?..Well you can use a screwdriver to open a tin of paint, is that what a screwdriver was designed for?
You design something with a function and a purpose, now it may not deliver that purpose and require tweeking, but it still has that purpose. If you change the purpose then you need to change everything.
Now ask yourself what is Chi sao? basically your arms are in a blocking position. The tan sau is very strong as a block, but if you push it really hard then you have to roll the arm ,and it becomes a bong sau, which is also very strong if you understand it's purpose. so the purpose of the exercise is to execute a block against a strong opponent and see where that takes you when it changes, or how you can gain an advantage.
It is important therefore to retain some semblence of a block, the stance is also important in Wing Chun, as the stance is tied or related very strongly to the arm position.
If you are out of stance, if your arms are not in a blocking position then you have changed the purpose of the chi sao, it has become something different..and that is what this guy has done. Really they should both be pushing towards one another, and if one breaks down the other should get through and be in a position to attack....this is the kind of situation where nobody loses , but nobody wins and nobody learns anything of any real value :lol:
Wing chun is very scientific in a sense, becuase the people who know what they are doing can explain everything about the style. It's not a question of finding explanations for kata etc, everything is known 8) .it's very deep

this is good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzZL7MEqq0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk_a52sxbcg


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:13 am 
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Once, in China I did see
a consensus come to be
'twixt volcano and the sea
regarding the price of tea


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