Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:02 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17202
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
A little background information.

I have practiced Yang style tai chi, having learned the form from Robert Smith and one of his students.

..... Robert W. Smith (writer)

Once upon a time I was regularly doing Chen Manchin's form.

..... Chen Manching & Robert W. Smith

I also spent a year practicing Neigong from a Chinese who was also a professor at UVa.

..... Neigong

I also have a shodan in the Tomiki method of aikido - one of the classic Japanese internal arts.

hthom wrote:
I suggest you research into the theories of "Wai Dan" and "Nei Dan", the external and internal concepts. (Uechi Ryu is an external style, whereas Tai Chi for example, is one of the internal styles.) Yes, some of the stuff are just too far fetched, but again, no harm being a little open minded, Bill.

My understanding is that a style like Shotokan is a classic external style, Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi are the three classic Chinese internal styles, and Uechi is an amalgam of the two. If Uechi isn't the amalgam of internal and external style principles, then we need to get Tomoyose Ryuko to explain why he wrote the characters he did to describe the style - characters which can be found in the beginning of George's Uechiryu Karatedo. Goju is a cousin style of Uechi, and translates literally as hard/soft or external/internal.

hthom wrote:
A quote from Dr J-Ming on a common Kung Fu belief: Over practice by external stylist "can cause a problem called "energy dispersion" when the practitioner gets older. In order to remedy this, when an external martial artist reaches a high level of external Chi Kung training he will start training internal Chi Kung---"

This is the stereotype, but it's not necessarily true. Some of the best internal style practitioners are quite young. This was especially true of children of the famous Chinese masters.

hthom wrote:
Not that I have really started any internal stuff, and yes, that stuff can't be measured

Think very carefully about what was just said. If "that stuff" can't be measured, then by definition "that stuff" is of no consequence. "That stuff" will neither improve our health nor help us when the bad guy jumps out of the bushes.

"That stuff" is often part of this hide-the-ball- business that chi-sters invoke when making claims that can't be supported. Meanwhile there are internal style practitioners who are quite good at their martial art, have superior well being, and make no claims to magic. Joe Bellone is one of them.

..... “Internal Power within Martial Arts,” by Joe Bellone

Tim Cartmell has written much about the internal martial arts. He speaks fluent Chinese and has studied in China, so there is nothing lost in the translation. Tim doesn't throw the "chi" word around in his works. Tim sent me one of his books on Xingyi. I highly recommend any of them.

..... Tim Cartmell publications

It doesn't have to be magic. It is my job as a scientist to pinprick the balloons that the mystics among us create to make us think they have secret sauce. I will readily admit that many are convinced of their own magic.

hthom wrote:
To each he own Bill, and wait till you get older ;-)

Flattery will get you everywhere. :-P

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17202
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
For Van.

..... Natural horsemanship

You know... The more I think about what my expert equestrian girlfriend (from decades back) was doing with me by giving me the most difficult horses to ride, the more I realize she was trying to work with "us" and our relationship.

Male minds will of course run with that metaphor... 8)

..... Aerosmith

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 406
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Nice little video clip (Good Will Hunting). That quick view of the dome reminds me of the grad school I attended 40 years ago. It looks like the MIT dome. I never mention my education much in the fear of being misunderstood as bragging. Anyway, I walked through that dome many times, don't recognize that hallway though. I did my share of lab work and yes, measuring too. I was fortunate (another unmeasurable entity, I am afraid) enough to be hired by one of the largest engineering company in the world and I left MIT before completing my grad degree so I didn't have to starve my young family. The company moved my family, every single penny paid, all the way to California which started the second phase of my rather success professional life.

While on the subject of Chi Kung, yea, the word "stuff" I used for some of the things I "threw out of the window" might be a little harsh but so be it. I try to be open minded but there is a limit.

The word "art" in Martial Art implies more than just fighting or worrying about "bad guys jump out of a bush". That gets tiring. If that is all one wants, there are easier ways. By the way, I teach self defense regularly for those type of situations, and with personal experience on street fights to back it up so please--- (I wasn't your typical nerd when I was young).

As we progress and mature (older?), it would be wise to look more into areas of the art other than fighting, such as health benefits. Hence my post on Chi Kung and Sanchin. The "stuff" in Chi Kung that I didn't throw out of the window includes meditation, breathing, maintaining calmness, plus any health benefits that I can believe whether they are measurable or not.

Quote:
My understanding is that a style like Shotokan is a classic external style, Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi are the three classic Chinese internal styles, and Uechi is an amalgam of the two.

Glad you mentioned it. "Half hard-half soft" is our motto. Where did I say anything to the contrary? Give me some credit, Bill.

Let me repeat that I do my Sanchin slowly and calmly, which fits into the model of half hard and half soft. If you rather do yours huffing and puffing away, good for you. As a matter of fact I saw plenty of Uechi people huff and puff away with their Sanchin and all their katas ignoring the basic concept of half-hard and half-soft. Like I said, to each his own.

If you would just try to relax a bit, Bill, you may realize we are not far apart. I think relaxation can be measured. :mrgreen:

Let me suggest that your point of not believing anything that can not be measured needs a little rethinking. Take it easy Bill, life is too short to be so limited. There are plenty of things believable but can't be measured. Can you digitally measure "humbleness"? "honesty"? "love"? Come on!

I hope we are not arguing for the sake of arguing but it certainly seems that way. If that is the case, I am out-la-here. I know you are good at it. I stopped debating or arguing since I stopped working as an engineer. I leave that to folks who enjoy it more than I do. Yes, I am out-la-here.

To conclude and to offer advise to those who are more open minded:
Do your Sanchin slowly and calmly. All katas should be practiced within the basic Uechi concept of "half hard and half soft", but not necessarily "slowly" except for Sanchin (in my humble opinion), so don't clobber me with it.

_________________
Henry Thom
www.EmptyHandsDefense.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30510
Good post, Henry...

One thing though is puzzling for me...back when Tomoyose sensei was in Boston and I spent much time with him, he also taught at my Norwood dojo...

He told me Sanchin should be practiced daily 'as hard as you can' not as fast as you can...and then stop doing them...no more than three Sanchins per day.

Cannot recall the reasons he gave me. Bill, what do you make of that?

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 406
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Van, As I quoted earlier:
Quote:
.---" Beware though, it is known in the Kungfu community that over training in Chi Kung, or trained improperly, may damage the practitioner's health and organs also.


You mentioned:
Quote:
He (Tomoyose Sensei) told me Sanchin should be practiced daily 'as hard as you can' not as fast as you can...and then stop doing them...no more than three Sanchins per day.


Dr J-Ming got into that subject a bit: "---If he trains (in this case, body building) properly, he will naturally gain physical health. However, if he exercises too much, he will over-energize his body and over-excite his mind and Chi. This will make the physical body too Yang (positive). According to Chinese philosophy, too much of something is excessive Yang and too little is excessive Yin, neither extreme is desirable." Yes, it may sound like gobbledy·gook but isn't it better believing in it a bit than not?

My point is, but somehow being twisted, is in my opinion we should do Sanchin slowly and calmly. It may be more beneficial from a health fitness standpoint whether it could be measured. In my stage of life, I want to be able to maintain my health. I did not say doing Sanchin soft, nor did I mean doing it un-hard, although I think doing it too hard may have other harmful effect, even if not measureable or immediately observable.

Just my simple minded thinking. That's all.

_________________
Henry Thom
www.EmptyHandsDefense.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17202
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
hthom wrote:
My point is, but somehow being twisted, is in my opinion we should do Sanchin slowly and calmly.

I believe Sanchin is a tool to be used in any fashion that pleases you. As I am want to tell my students, it is just a tool. Take it out of the box and play with it. God won't strike you down for doing so.

hthom wrote:
In my stage of life, I want to be able to maintain my health.

That puts you in the very large category of martial artists who practice karate do as opposed to karate jutsu.

I find martial arts challenge me in myriad ways. It's part exercise and part barometer of where we are in life. Something like Sanchin is valuable to me both for the direct benefit and for how it highlights areas in need of self-improvement. It's a journey, and not a destination.

hthom wrote:
Can you digitally measure "humbleness"? "honesty"? "love"?

Funny you should bring this up as an argument against measurement.

We discuss these concepts all the time in my classes. Knowing people is part of self-defense. Knowing yourself is part of self-defense. Understanding how people interact and why they do what they do is part of self-defense. So invoking the soft sciences is part of what makes us better martial artists.

Here's a great test for you when you have some time. And when you get a chance, read up on the subject. Goleman is a great start.

..... Emotional Intelligence Test

FWIW, I score a 73. ;-)

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17202
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Van Canna wrote:
One thing though is puzzling for me...back when Tomoyose sensei was in Boston and I spent much time with him, he also taught at my Norwood dojo...

He told me Sanchin should be practiced daily 'as hard as you can' not as fast as you can...and then stop doing them...no more than three Sanchins per day.

Cannot recall the reasons he gave me. Bill, what do you make of that?

I listen... I wasn't there, so I take the hearsay with a grain of salt. Often when we hear such statements, we don't understand the context in which they were made. And we don't necessarily appreciate the nuances lost in translation.

I agree with the "not as fast as you can." Not all things in life should be rushed, and Sanchin is one of them. It is to be savored.

But it is an energy form; it must possess the proper passion. This is where "as hard as you can" comes in - even with something lost in the translation. As such, it requires us to consider and work with what we have. No "dead fish kata." ;-) A great analogy I can think of is an interview of Janis Joplin by Dick Cavett. She sings like we should be doing Sanchin. Note her disparaging remarks of the Europeans who witnessed her concerts, and Dick's commentary of it.

..... Janis Joplin bitches about European audiences

Are there caricatures of performance that someone (no names mentioned) brings up as a strawman example? Of course. But as I tell my students, we shouldn't be doing decaffeinated kata. Even the young kids get that metaphor. When I ask my son in class what I mean by that metaphor, he says "What's the point drinking decaffeinated coffee?" Or beer without alcohol for that matter.

Finally... A lot of people have recipes for success. Mr. Tomoyose has his own. Others have their own. It's entirely possible to have many ways to prepare a dish or perform an art. The recipe though is a guideline and not bible verse. Ultimately it has to work for the individual. And it's entirely expected for an individual's methods to evolve with time, age, and understanding.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30510
Yeah, to each his own I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYNqgiYHFlU

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 436
Some might think this thread a train wreck , I think its quite illuminating ....

I think Uechi is down the middle it has both aspects whatever they may be

I do like mindful practice , and slow practice to ingrain and tweak and build it in , but definitely not effortless , we've all been around a while , different times have different prescription.

That test took too long Bill , I got an 80 and I'm not really sure what it was scoring ...... but I take your point most everything is measurable.

But then we get to the whole it just makes me feel good .

Bill where do you think chi-gung fits in as a possible mindful work of proprioception? or some form of meditative conditioning.... surely those with a better body sense and better sensation of grounding (even just potentially psychological) may be of benefit, just the mind body intention link .

I suspect your answer would be your just better doing stuff .... but I thought I'd ask .

actually i think we should move on to the best way to cook a streak !!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17202
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Stryke wrote:
Some might think this thread a train wreck , I think its quite illuminating ....

Imagine Henry's perspective. He comes on board with an interesting (albeit slightly off the beaten path) idea and perspective. His perspective IMO is a perfectly valid one, even if I'm not completely aligned with him. But the process of interview for someone who doesn't regularly subject themselves to peer review has to feel absolutely eviscerating. It's not personal. It's what interested and inquisitive minds do.

On the extreme end of that... My first martial arts instructor was an old school Japanese who had a thing for beating his students with shinais and such. The thing we learned though was that he was hardest on the people he liked the most. The worst insult from him wasn't leaving a class with purple welts on your body; it was being ignored.

The same is true actually for well/controlled martial artists who spar with you. If you're good, you don't want a Rad Smith (my first Uechi instructor), Gary Khoury, or Manny Neves being nice; you want them trying to hurt you. And sometimes you do get a bit rearranged. In the process of living on the edge, your martial makeup is developed and tempered.

I'm good at what I do at work because I have no intellectual shame and I love the stimulation of social interaction. My friend Henry here reminds me of many engineers I went to school with on the undergraduate. God knows *I* stuck out on the undergraduate like a fish out of water. Most engineers don't care for that social shark tank. They're good at what they do because they quietly engage their brains off to the side where they make great things. But you're right, Marcus. This is where the good stuff gets worked on and developed.

It's worth noting that one of my personal heroes, Thomas Jefferson, didn't like the social shark tank. While great orators debated at The First Continental Congress, Jefferson was sitting quietly at the side taking notes. His great works are remembered today not by speeches he made, but by the synthesis of all that he was exposed to through the debate of others. When he became president, he actually had someone else read his State of the Union Addresses.

Stryke wrote:
That test took too long Bill , I got an 80 and I'm not really sure what it was scoring ...... but I take your point most everything is measurable.

Those are astute observations, Marcus.

The reason for the oh-my-god length of the test is the multidimensionality of emotional intelligence. It's not one attribute; it's a broad spectrum of social attributes which makes a person brilliant on a social level (or not) the way an Einstein was on an intellectual level.

Also... some tests like this need a number of questions to address a single item. Part of emotional intelligence is knowing thy self. If you ask someone the same question (more or less) 5 times and you always come across as the same curmudgeon on that question, well you're very aware of your curmudgeon nature. If you're all over the place on your responses, well then you haven't a clue. That's a bad place to be when dealing with others.

Stryke wrote:
Bill where do you think chi-gung fits in as a possible mindful work of proprioception? or some form of meditative conditioning.... surely those with a better body sense and better sensation of grounding (even just potentially psychological) may be of benefit, just the mind body intention link .

I suspect your answer would be your just better doing stuff .... but I thought I'd ask .

I think chi-gung with Sanchin is like jar training for the autonomic and subconscious nervous system. You're taking an important but narrow aspect of all that is Sanchin, and diving down deep with it. Some of us need it more than others. Some of us get it right off, some of us will never get it, and the rest of us need constantly to work at and play with it. Ironically enough it's figuratively part of that "mindful" practice we do before we do the "mindless" Sanchin rituals.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
Posts: 1266
As a Libra, I like some some yin with my yang.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chi Kung--- Sanchin
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 436
Quote:
I think chi-gung with Sanchin is like jar training for the autonomic and subconscious nervous system. You're taking an important but narrow aspect of all that is Sanchin, and diving down deep with it. Some of us need it more than others. Some of us get it right off, some of us will never get it, and the rest of us need constantly to work at and play with it. Ironically enough it's figuratively part of that "mindful" practice we do before we do the "mindless" Sanchin rituals.


Thanks for the reply , well put , seems like we pretty much agree 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group