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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:44 am 
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This seems so sketchy on so many levels. I'll post the article first, and comment later.

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NYPD Officer's Chokehold Led to Staten Island Man's Death, Medical Examiner Says
By PERVAIZ SHALLWANI
Updated Aug. 1, 2014 5:34 p.m. ET

A New York City man's death last month resulted in part from a chokehold applied by a police officer trying to arrest him, a medical examiner said Friday, in ruling it a homicide.

The incident has drawn local and federal prosecutors' attention, while elected officials and civil-rights leaders have pressed Mayor Bill de Blasio and Police Commissioner William Bratton to make changes at the New York City Police Department.

The cause of Eric Garner's death was compression of the neck, chest compression and being laid flat on the ground while officers restrained him, said Julie Bolcer, spokeswoman for the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner.

Patrick Lynch, president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, the union that represents NYPD officers, said his organization "stands firmly in support of all police officers who are put in these difficult circumstances."

On July 17, two plainclothes officers, including Officer Daniel Pantaleo, moved to arrest Mr. Garner, 43 years old, for allegedly selling untaxed cigarettes on a Staten Island sidewalk, police said. Witnesses recorded video of the confrontation, and the footage was posted on the New York Daily News website.

Mr. Pantaleo applied the chokehold when Mr. Garner refused to be handcuffed. Mr. Garner could be heard on the video saying he couldn't breathe. When Mr. Garner was taken to the ground, several other officers arrived and held him while waiting for emergency medical services to arrive.

Mr. Garner was pronounced dead about an hour later at a hospital. His family couldn't be reached to comment. Coroners found that Mr. Garner's physical ailments, including asthma, obesity and heart disease, contributed to his death. Mr. Lynch said that if Mr. Garner hadn't resisted arrest, "this tragedy would not have occurred." He called for a complete review of the death, considering Mr. Garner's "serious health problems."

The medical examiner's results have been given to the office of Richmond County District Attorney Daniel Donovan, which covers Staten Island and will determine if any of the officers' actions were criminal. The NYPD has banned chokeholds since 1993. A spokesman for Mr. Donovan said the investigation was continuing.

Civil-rights leaders have called for Mr. Donovan to let federal prosecutors lead the investigation, saying state courts can't properly prosecute cases involving police abuse. Officials at the Office of the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of New York, which has jurisdiction over Staten Island, have said they are closely following the investigation. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder in July said the Justice Department was "closely monitoring" the investigation.

Mr. Garner's family and supporters have rallied with civil-rights leaders in the city, and activist Rev. Al Sharpton has called for an overhaul of the NYPD.

Mr. Bratton recently said he would embark on a months-long retraining of every NYPD officer in the use of force. On Friday, Mr. Bratton said his department will continue to cooperate with the district attorney's office.

Write to Pervaiz Shallwani at pervaiz.shallwani@wsj.com


- WSJ.com

A picture of the deceased is in order.

Image

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:07 am 
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I wish I could find a video without the commentary. Alas this is all I can find. It shows enough.

(FULL) Black Man KILLED After NYPD Cop Puts Him In CHOKEHOLD For Breaking Up a FIGHT

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:18 pm 
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Seems there are a heckuvalot of people being killed by cops in the US...you can hear that guy saying that he can't breath. In the UK a cop shot an unarmed man, he is now being tried for murder, rightly so.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:20 pm 
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A heck of a lot of people in the US are still stupid enough to try to take a cop's gun, to fire their own at a cop, or to bring a knife to a gunfight. 400 people a year on average, I think I saw somewhere.

No sympathy. What kind of tactical blindness makes a man think they can take a cop? Or is it the last desperate gasp? Some of it though is just suicide by cop: an expressed desire to die, and to make the cops pull the trigger. Don't get caught up in the Narrative, Jorvik. Brown's accomplice just admitted he made his story up, and that Brown did fight, and that the cop shot in self-defense.

The key action that led to a choke-hold in the case Bill posted, was the refusal to be handcuffed. The cops don't have a choice. They have to handcuff him. So here's this guy making the cops do it by force. 'Bad chokehold' is used in the heat of the moment. Justified? I don't know. I'm not really sure why the choke-hold was applied. Maybe the cop was wrong, maybe he wasn't. That'll be decided in the process of things.

What I do know is that few people feel qualified to tell a nuclear physicist how to do his job, and yet every talking head on television seems to think they're an expert on police matters. And then they post pictures of earplugs, mistaking them for bullets...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Your missing the point the police and the politicians are our servants , not our masters. If there is no other choice but to shoot someone then so be it. It is not the job of the police to execute people for minor offences. The cops in the US seem to be heavily militarised and frankly out of control. This is from an English perspective.just saying what I see on your news broadcasts.and before you say anything I am pro gun and very anti piers morgan :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:11 pm 
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Thanks for addressing the sociopolitical distraction, Jason.

Stand down, jorvik. You are off topic.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:12 pm 
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Here's what I see. I make this assessment based on being a systems physiologist published in the field of cardiology who created heart attacks in the laboratory (in dogs) for four years. I also have done a *lot* of work (and published) on respiratory diseases and conditions.

This fellow is morbidly obese. As such, he is a walking heart attack risk. I'm finding the conclusions of the medical examiner troubling. "Well it was this combined with this and a little of that and maybe some of this and..." Can you BE any more noncommital?

A "choke hold" is a grotesquely non-specific label for a martial arts technique. Published as such, the medical examiner clearly didn't know the subject matter. I would *love* to be a subject matter expert at that trial.

These kinds of holds fall into two general categories: 1) blood chokes (a.k.a lateral vascular neck restraint) and 2) airway chokes (by one of many means). The former is what a trained judoka uses in a judo match, and no competitors die from it. The latter happens when someone who doesn't know what they are doing applies a neck restraint.

Then we look at the video. Did you watch it? I did... For the bit of time I saw this, I didn't see either a blood choke or an airway choke. What I saw was someone using the head/neck as a handle to break the person's balance. The upper and lower arms were not employed. Rather the officer came from behind and latched onto the neck area with a hyperextended wrist. The contact point on the neck/chin area was the back of his hand. Past that point, we can't even see what's going on. There is briefly a period where it looks like a blood choke is being applied, but I can't see it long enough to confirm this.

What we do *hear* is the fellow SAYING "I can't breathe! I can't breathe! I can't breathe!" If either a blood choke or an airway choke is being applied, then he wouldn't be able to talk as such.

We cannot eliminate the following possibilities.

1) This person had what's known as a critical stenosis (a narrowing of a key coronary artery), and began to experience symptoms of myocardial ischemia when his morbidly obese, out-of-shape body was taxed by the wrestling. This is akin to an older may shoveling snow and then getting paralyzing chest pain.

2) He experienced an inability to breathe freely with the combination of his supine weight and several people sitting on his chest.

3) Having asthma, he hit respiratory acidosis pretty quickly in the struggle.

4) Some combination of the above.

At some point in the ischemic event, a heart attack (ventricular fibrillation) is imminent.

None of this has anything to do with a "choke hold" - whatever the heck that is.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:47 pm 
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I aim to please, Bill. 8)
Good analysis. I wish I'd taken the time to look at this more closely, but the media's love affair with this stuff just makes me not care. I really do hate the Internet Rage Machine.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:21 am 
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Quote:
1) This person had what's known as a critical stenosis (a narrowing of a key coronary artery), and began to experience symptoms of myocardial ischemia when his morbidly obese, out-of-shape body was taxed by the wrestling. This is akin to an older may shoveling snow and then getting paralyzing chest pain.

2) He experienced an inability to breathe freely with the combination of his supine weight and several people sitting on his chest.

3) Having asthma, he hit respiratory acidosis pretty quickly in the struggle.

4) Some combination of the above.

At some point in the ischemic event, a heart attack (ventricular fibrillation) is imminent.

None of this has anything to do with a "choke hold" - whatever the heck that is.


pretty good reason to go by the book , if the book says you can squeeze the neck no problem , if it says you cant , don't be caught on tape doing anything that looks like it.

Honestly I applaud LEO's and it's a terrible tough job , but it seems everyone's a victim in this one.

its a sad clip , I wonder were the lesson is , I don't feel comfortable pointing a finger at either party because you could argue either position and be right.

maybe sometimes it's just a tragedy and misguided on everyone's part?, maybe Bills right do you assume the risk when you resist? , or do you assume the risk when you use the neck ? is it allowed? ......

I also wonder how else you'd take this guy down. Can you imagine if they tazered him


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:00 pm 
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Good points, Marcus.

1) The *appearance* of impropriety often is enough to get you in deep, deep trouble later on. Marcus makes a good point. If a lateral vascular neck restraint is off limits for NY LEOs, then it's off limits. Don't be caught doing anything close to it on camera.

2) When you fail to do what an officer of the law asks you to do, you are digging a hole for yourself. What comes to mind is Chris Rock's tongue-in-cheek skit which can be found online.

..... How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police

3) When society takes away options on the lower end of the force continuum, then it is left with police jumping to tear gas, tasering, and a bullet in the center of mass. Remember that this was a BIG dude, and nobody wants to deal with an angry BIG dude. Ticking him off with tear gas in the face may result in the same end game.

This was a no-win situation. I'm sure everyone involved feels terrible about the outcome. That said, it helps to view this thing objectively, and turn the volume down so you can let actions speak for themselves.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:52 am 
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Well put Bill , very much what I was trying to say

Quote:
3) When society takes away options on the lower end of the force continuum, then it is left with police jumping to tear gas, tasering, and a bullet in the center of mass. Remember that this was a BIG dude, and nobody wants to deal with an angry BIG dude. Ticking him off with tear gas in the face may result in the same end game.


good point wish people would understand this. It's definately not as easy as in the movies


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:06 am 
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Just goes to show that martial arts are just as relevant today. Be nice if Police were trained in how to control someone without having to choke them to death. Seriously, did that guy exhibit lethal intent? Hard job, people should be trained and paid accordingly.

When people are only exposed to the extremes, things become extreme.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:47 am 
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It is just sad that there are those on both sides of equation who do not understand how to resolve things in a real and caring way. Conflict is the way with us, and we seem to exist in a constant state of war with each other.


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