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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 1998 2:00 pm 
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I just finished a short e-mail exchange with Sifu Mooney. After giving him an opportunity to review the forum, he was kind enough to offer a direct post. I would like to thank him for his generous offer.

Mr Mooney mentioned viewing the "flames" on our forum. Flames?? He hasn't really met Dr. Morenski and Mr. Brelsford and Mr Hall and Mr Canna and, and, ..... Anyhow even if you disagree with the post, please be respectful to our guest. But don't disappoint!! Thanks.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 09-23-98).]


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 1998 2:05 pm 
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THIS IS THE POST THAT SIFU MOONEY GAVE ME PERMISSION TO SUBMIT. HE ADDED A BRIEF PREFACE AFTER VIEWING THE ORIGINAL THREAD. NOTE HE IS RESPONDING TO SOMEONE ELSE'S POST IN THE KYUSHO FORUM IN HIS ORIGINAL POST.

BILL


I never EVER use any of my own students when I demonstrate the ability. Lin Kong Jing ability is not telekinesis.
Telekinesis is the ablity to move an inanimate oblject. The ability is more properly called teleurgy. A chair doe snot have
the quality of Ren Chi, or Human Chi, therefore qi will do NOTHING to it. My ability does not throw people around, as is
often the case with kong jing people who are PRECONDITIONED to respond in that manner. My ability, and the ability of others
who train in the method will bring about nausea, vomiting, headache, dizziness, confusion, "the runs", and other similar
sequelae. It is not a be all end all technique it is a great adjunct to anyone's training. I will demonstrate the ability on
anyone anywhere and at anytime one person or 20 people, facing me, facing away from me, eyes opened eyes closed
on the other side of a door or a wall. the only requirement is that they be relaxed NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.

The ones who are senistive to it will react to it quite quickly, just like there are some people who have a low threshold to
pain, when hit in a light manner will react as if they had been decked hard. Then there are others who are not as sensitive
to it, who will take more time to react, just as there are those you have to pop a few times to get them off you. then you
have those who are not sensitive to it at all, just as you have those who would laugh at your efforts to hurt them with your
best technique.

Regarding randi's alleged "prize", there are people who have "pledged' the money. he does not actually have it in escorw or
laying around in his account. His stipulation is also that the ability claimed and demonstrated must be supernatural in
origin. mine is not. ANYONE who has the guts to do the training will gain the SAME EXACT results that I have.

here is your post for the list discussion at uechi ryu .com

>>>>>

HOW DOES POWERFUL EMPTY FORCE WORK?

Through my rigorous training and experimentation into Lin Kong Jing, I have come up with some ideas as to how this ability is
made to work. I feel that the force gained through the standing, sitting and extra practices, is related to electromagnetic,
or bioelectric force field manipulation. We all know that our earth has an electromagnetic field, and we humans have our own
EM field as a result of this. We are, in essence, a conductor of this field, because of our own innate electro cellular
properties. By standing in the postures, we are able to root down, and increase our ability in induct and conduct this EM
force. This force is what the Chinese call "Qi". Qi is the stuff that Jing is made of. Just like you need a seed to make a
flower, you need Qi to make Jing.

The average EM field of a person who does not train in qigong is weak. As you train in the postures, your own EM field
expands and strengthens. The longer, and more you train, the stronger the EM field gets. This is essentially how Lin Kong
Jing manifests when called on for healing or self defense.

We all know that electricity flows from highest potential to lowest potential. When Lin Kong Jing is used for martial arts
use, and the attacker is subjected to this energetic field, their energy body cannot handle the excess force that it is being
bombarded with. This is why when they are exposed to the Jing, they are knocked down, or knocked back, when they come into
contact with it. Some people have a naturally stronger EM field, and they will be affected by the Jing to a lesser extent,
if they are affected at all. This brings me to my next point.

People have asked me "Why doesn't the force affect everyone the same way"?. To that inquiry I put forth the following
answer:

I consider the practice of the postures to be a type of energetic weight lifting. As we all know, when you start weight
training, you just don't go the rack with the biggest and heaviest weights on it, and start pumping iron. To do so is to
invite injury, disappointment and frustration. One must first start out with light weights, and then, over time, go on to
bigger and heavier challenges. It is the same way with Lin Kong Jing. When I first started demonstrating this method, I
could only affect a small percentage of people; they would waver a little bit, moving forward or backward, and that would be
all.

There were also people that I could not even budge at all! After training much more, I found that I could cause the ones who
would only waver, to move a bit more, and it would affect them a bit more forcefully. I also found that the ones who I could
not move at all,were now moving, although just a little bit. This experience happens to this day. I feel that the people I
am trying to affect, are like what we could call "Heavier Weights".

I feel that, in essence, my force is like the weight lifter, and at certain junctures of my training and progress, I need
to test out what my force is capable of achieving with the "Heavier Weights".By way of another analogy, I am sure we all know
people who can go out on the town and drink up a storm without suffering a hangover the next day. I am equally sure that we
also know people who, if they even have one or two shots of liquor, wake up the next morning feeling like they have ten tons
of rocks stuffed into their skulls. This has to do with metabolism. Metabolism involves the breakdown of complex chemicals
in the body, and then these are assimilated for the purpose of storage for later use in growth or maintenance. When you
drink, it is well known that there is a specific amount of time in which the liver will process the alcohol, and convert it
into glucose. If your liver cannot properly process the alcohol dumped into it, the result is a hangover the next day!

I feel that it is the same with the energy body, and the way it can or cannot process the Lin Kong Jing force, when it is
confronted with it. Some people have a very fast and efficient energy metabolism, and they are able to digest the force when
it is projected to them in quick fashion. These are the kinds of people who are barely affected by the force when you
project it to them. Next we have those who have an average rate of energy metabolism, these people are noticeably moved by
the force. They will be knocked down, or knocked back, and are more than likely going to get sick from their exposure to the
force, when they are projected to. The last type of people we will discuss are those with a very slow, lethargic, energy
metabolism. These people, when projected to, will sustain the greatest injuries if they don't back away from the force when
they are exposed to it.

Another interesting thing I have found is that the physical profile of the person projected to, has no bearing whatsoever on
their energetic metabolism! I have met, and projected to, many hundreds of people. Some of them big and muscular, some of
them overweight and sedentary. Some of each group are easily affected, while others are not. What it boils down to is that
you, as a Lin Kong Jing person,will have to maintain your practice, and get stronger and stronger, so that eventually, you'll
be able to affect more people, than not.

I also strongly believe that the practice of the postures cause the brain to secrete massive amounts of chemicals into the
body. These chemicals are perhaps a type of "Key", that allows us access to a special area of the mind that is not used by
people during their normal course of life. You might also say that the Lin Kong Jing effect is used to short circuit the
attacker's nerves, their internal wiring. Whereas a physical attack merely goes after the external muscular and skeletal
structure.

Too many people it seems, like to jump the gun when it comes to discussing this ability, because it is so very rare, and
requires an intense amount of practice and patience. Someone said in another forum, well, if they can only move 8 people
out of ten, it still does not make it an effective self defense method. To that I say BS. on any given day your best punch
will not take down 10 out of ten people if you hit them in the gut, or on the jaw. does that mean that your martial art is
not an effective self defense method? heck no, it just means that your method, and your body has limitations.
Take any champion runner, or weightlifter and ask them to do their best record breaking run or lift on command, I know they
will not be able to do it, does this make them a fake? no it just means that there are limitations on everything.

there are kyusho, tuite, dim mak and chin na methods that work great on most people, and will not work on others.
does that mean that the martial arts they come from a fraudulent? no. get my drift now?


>Now Erle is Sifu in Tajiquan and certainly believes in Qi and the internal
>arts!! But not in nonsense. I agree with Erle on this point. I have seen
>'touch or rub' knockouts. That is one thing. The rest is a scam as far as I
>am concerned.

Erle has some confused comments in his latest work, he claims
that Lin Kong Jing, or Empty Force does not exist, but yet he claims to be able to disrupt a persons
energy field without contact. If you can do one, then you can do the other. sadly there are more fakes out there than there
are the real item, that is what makes my job all the more harder. please dont make your world so small that you cant see out
of it. there are more methods and realities out there than you can possibly imagine. Just because Erle is a teacher of
taiji doesnt make him the final word on *any* subject at all. Does this mean I dont respect him, no. it just means he has his
position to express, and I have my views also. that is what makes the world go round.

Sadder still is that people make such broad sweeping statements, yet will never invest one minute in the training from which
the ability comes, instead they make ignorant comments and generalizations about a topic for which they have absolutley
no understanding of.

I know what I do is real, because if it was not, I would NOT be training in it still. Those who know better, are the ones
who have seen me over the years as my ability matures and grows. These are the same people who at one time thought that the
ability was a dream, and now they are training and doing it themselves. what does this have to do with kyusho?

It has this: If you strike someone on a point, and your energy is focused and strong, you will not have to exert much
physical force or effort to affect the target. It gives you the baility to gain a different type of strength that grows with
age, unlike the muscles which decline over time.

so, to conclude I have this to say: Just because someone is a sifu in one art does not make him a master of all arts.
Just because a sifu is skilled a few methods, does not mean he is skilled in all methods.

rmooney


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 1998 6:52 pm 
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Let me first state that I do not believe or disbelieve what Sifu Mooney states, I will this year make a pilgrimage to one of his seminars to feel and see first hand what he professes. Until then I will not comment as I don't know enough about it. I have seen some pretty unbelieveable information that I still cannot fathom or dismiss, I will say that currently there are a few of us in DKI (Dillman Sensei's Organization) that are working and having limited success with some very bizarre stuff as well. As a matter of fact when the time is correct I will invite Mattson Sensei along with other upper ranking Uechi people to witness the above mentioned stuff for their own information.

Until then. No Comment.

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 1998 10:25 pm 
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Hi Bill,

Good thread as usual ..you know how to find the ' mental buttons ' …

My view Has always been that there are useful elements in all this martial arts stuff we do ..but lots of it must , of necessity , be very questionable ..because in life nothing is so simple! One of the problems I have always had with claims of effectiveness of any style and technique / principle ..is that the teachers / practitioners/masters , by their teaching approach , seem to project the enemy in the minds of the students as easy prey for our 'killer ' techniques ! As I have said before , the only convincing way for me is to see it done under real combat conditions , against behemoth opponents charging like bulls , and under the various altered mental states of the ' players' --- but here you will get lots of evasive arguments ! It is almost as though the real dynamics of fights are suspended in mid air to make room for illusions ! Now this is not meant to be offensive or to start a 'flame 'war .. because if this is what people will pull out of the bag , I will consider it a 'red herring' and I will not give any more replies! I am talking about reasonable doubt in the minds of reasonable men/women !

I would be interested in Mark Breldford 's view on this , specifically as to what he may have been told by Master Uechi and Master Nakahodo relative Kyusho secrets known to them but not made available to American Practitioners ! What is the current view On Okinawa today about such secrets and how they should impact on Uechi Ryu ! And if The 'secrets ' were known all along , why were we not trusted/told ? Why would the Okinawans allow such High Dan ranks to The Americans …to represent the system world wide …if we only have it's shell?

Hi Mark ! Can you help us out ?

Van Canna


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 1:13 am 
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Having neither seen Lin Kong Jing or have any knowlege of it or anything similar I obviously cannot make a valid comment for or against. However, I did view the tai chi video clip and do understand (basically) what these demonstrations are attempting to accomplish. Having said that, I would like to relate what I have seen in evangelical churches. (I AM NOT CRITICIZING ANYBODIES RELIGION) An evangelical preacher comes into the church, lays hands on peoples heads, professes to speak in tongues (maybe he is - who am I to say?) and most of the people faint, collapse, shake, etc... I go up there, the guy puts his hands on my forehead, utters words in an unfamiliar language, pushes my head back. I step back one step, Nothing!

Was this some sort of attempt at hypnosis on the people that did have a reaction? Was my magnatic field too strong? Weak? Parlor tricks? Maybe missed my left toe #27? (sad attempt at humor, no offense Evan)

Is there a relationship in this and what sifu Mooney is attempting to explain?

Does anybody believe the whole thing MAY be the power of suggestion?

Scott


[This message has been edited by Scott Danziger (edited 09-23-98).]


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 2:33 am 
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Scott San wrote: Does anybody believe the whole thing MAY be the power of suggestion?

The only way to know for real is to meet him, I have been in contact with him via email just today after reading all of this and found out he has a seminar in Kansas in October. If I can clear my schedule I'll allow him to use me as Uke to see. if anyone else may be interested in going to verify whatever goes on contact me at kyusho@erols.com .

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 3:20 am 
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Having perpetrated a few unintentional mysterious feats upon students and laypeople over the years, I can understand how these newly discovered, ancient tricks can evolve.

I remember how someone "taught" me a "chi" feat of lowering one's center so one or multiple people, all lifting together, could not move me off the ground. For awhile, I actually believed that my "chi" was accomplishing this. Imagine my chagrine, when months later. . . and many demonstrations of my vast "powers". . . someone ask me if he could try. Before trying the lift, he asked me to move my hands so they were not touching his arms!!!! I didn't think this was a big deal, although the person who taught me the feat, showed me how to position my arms and hands in order to "maximize" my "chi"!

Well, this guy, who happened to be a weightlifter, nearly propelleled me through the ceiling! My 'chi' escaped me. He explained later that my earlier feats were in effect, using leverage by placing my hands and arms strategically, basically forcing my students to "lift themselves"!

I hadn't deliberately been dupping people prior to this. I honestly believed what I was doing was directly related to the 'chi' being created by my Sanchin. This is not to say that since then, I've been able to make myself 'appear' to be heavier while I'm in my Sanchin position, but I now understand a lot more about the whys and hows of what was happening.

I'm pleased that everyone is being so careful about 'flaming' one another. It is nice that we can discuss things without being obnoxious and disrespectful. I don't know the gentleman who is working on "moving" people without touching them. I'm sure that all the effort he is putting into his art is making him a better martial artist and he may be on the threshold of new discoveries. But I must caution him and those who are developing this feat, to be very careful not to mistake simply explained phenomenon as mysterious powers.

I would like to site one example of this power, performed by Mr Mooney. in a demonstration. (I read it in post that Bill sent me earlier)

According to Mr. Mooney, to show this feat, he lined up 10 (I believe) kids, one in back of the other, with arms outstretched, holding onto the person in front by the shoulders. (I believe they were all in a room, unaware of what was going to take place. He opened the door quickly and shouted something. The line buckled, demonstrating the power of ... chi.

Now, to me, this would happen, regardless of who opened a door, unannounce and with the group unaware of what was going to happen. When the loud shout "hit" the first person, chances are he would move back, away from the shout and in the process would push the arms of the person in back, who in turn would be shocked into reacting by pushing ... and naturally with a bit more force until by the time this shock wave hit the fifth person, it would be like a strong punch! Think about it... you know how, on the highway, everyone is driving along smoothly until someone ahead taps his brake lights!!! By the time the reaction reaches the cars one mile behind the tapper, cars are coming to a complete stop!

Anyway.... not that I disbelieve this power, but whenever a new martial art feat gets demonstrated and I can see a plausible explanation for what is happening, I tend to back off from the rest of the demonstrations. . . even those I might not quite understand at that moment.

But as I explained earlier about my "unmovable" Sanchin. . . the searching and practicing to do something which I later discovered was impossible, nontheless helped me achieve the doable . . . and in the process, pushed the envelope of my limitations.

Keep exploring, keep pushing. And lets keep trying to figure out why.

[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited 09-23-98).]


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 5:44 am 
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To Sifu Mooney:

You wrote:

I will demonstrate the ability on anyone anywhere and at anytime one person or 20 people, facing me, facing away from me, eyes opened eyes closed on the other side of a door or a wall. the only requirement is that they be relaxed NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.

You also wrote:
This is essentially how Lin Kong Jing manifests when called on for healing or self defense.

I reply:
Now here is the contradiction I can't get around. Explain how this works only when one is relaxed, yet is effective in self defense. " Sir, could you please put down the bat and take a few deep breaths and relax a moment?....…."

You wrote:
We all know that electricity flows from highest potential to lowest potential. When Lin Kong Jing is used for martial arts use, and the attacker is subjected to this energetic field, their energy body cannot handle the excess force that it is being bombarded with.

I Reply:
I know from first hand experience that magnetic fields can also be measured in very minute quantities. If there were enough force flowing from you to harm someone, this should measure off the scale! I suspect what may be happening is a form of hypnosis on your part. That is why it is not always effective, neither is hypnosis. (I have been hypnotized often, by the way, for relaxation and probably could have been knocked down with a feather it was so relaxing!) Hypnosis was a popular 19th century parlor trick after its popularization by Frederick Mesmer. He declared that heavenly bodies affected people through an invisible fluid he call "Animal Magnetism," and that ailments could be cured by restoring the natural flow of this magnetic fluid through the body. We all know now what he was doing!

I may with A LOT of persuasion agree that people can harness Chi to develop physical power. But to say it flows out as an energy force is beyond physical explanation. ( I don't want to hear the same old argument that there is a lot we don't understand etc, …blah blah...) Try to put forth a logical argument based solely on verifiable fact.

You wrote:

Just like you need a seed to make a flower, you need Qi to make Jing.

I reply:
Just as you need a seed to make a flower, you need fertilizer to make it grow.


Kevin


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:47 am 
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To All:

Having worked some with tai chi people in push hands, as well as getting into Wing Chun chi sao, there are some high level tai chi and Wing Chun practitioners who appear to knock people across the room with this incredible manifestation of martial "jing" or power.

Some practitioners explain this phenomenon as magical mystical chi in similar language to the Sifu who posted here.

Others explain it as all biomechanical and laws of physics. As the Sifu explains, it does require incredible amounts of training to hone and fine tune the points of rooting, centering, hunkering down, building quick sensitive reflexes to energy surges and transfers - all explanable phenomenon.

In these legitimate martial events, the 2 people are always in contact in sticky or push hands drills, with the advanced player drawing the mass/energy of the other back and forth, until he can spring a massive fluid shock wave to take advantage of the balance/momentum/energy shift in 1 dramatic move.

If you want to see a version of this, log onto the Chen Tai Chi website. Just remember that it's the law of physics - geometrically expanding the energy of the 1 player with that of the other.

If dramatic movement occurs with very light or no contact, then there is probably excessive help from the partner who may not even realize he has aided the demo!

It is unfortunate, since the phenomenon of martial jing in tai chi, white crane, etc. as practiced legitimately is awesome in it's on right.

Let an advanced tai chi or wing chun practitioner "play" sticky hands or chi sao with you and you can better understand the whole affair. "Come fly with me" is their theme song!


JohnC


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 3:24 pm 
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I thought I'd close this version of the thread so we could re-start with a new post from Sifu Mooney and a solicited comment from Bruce Miller. See part 3 above.

Bill


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