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 Post subject: Measuring Chi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 1998 1:49 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Now that we have vented our frustrations over ill chosen words, lets try to accomplish something!

I'd like to suggest the following subject as a first step:

Creation of a suitable "test" of "Chi". I happen to believe that this energy, which is called many things, can be demonstrated as a healing art and also as a destructive force. But the energy field, for want of a better description, comes from the same source. Rather than argue over whose chi is bigger, lets try to establish a set of criteria, acceptable by the chi proponents and critics. Perhaps we can persuade Randi to help us.

Lets begin by discussing the layout of the room in which the test would be performed. Then the selection of the subjects. Of course, the physical conditions of the room and how the person being tested would interact with the subjects. Next, how would we measure the results. I'm sure there are many other considerations. Lets hear them!!

And please, no more talk about spell chekkers and grammmmmer checks... Writing is an art. Hopefully we get better at it with practice. But if you intimidate people by making fun of their attempts to communicate, they will remain "lurkers".


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 Post subject: Measuring Chi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 1998 6:34 pm 
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Since no one responded to my request for testing criteria during my absence this morning, I will offer some ideas that might begin the discussion:

1. Since Mr. Mooney, Steve Benson, Dave Mott and perhaps Bob Campbell will be at Camp '99 and all practice what I will define as "chi" energy techniques, lets focus on a testing procedure we can experiment with, that involves these individuals.

2. How about a soundproof room where six cubicles can be constructed, side by side, but separated by sufficient space as to not contaminate the experiment. A divider will separate the tester from the chi expert. One will not be able to see the other.

3. One of these cubicles will be occupied by a random karate student, with no knowledge or apparent ability of the nature possessed by the four chi experts.

4. One of these cubicles will be empty.

5. Each cubicle will be numbered.

6. We will gather 60 volunteers, take them into a separate room where an independent person will inform them that:
a. They will not be touched during the test.
b. They may or may not hear anything during the test.
c. They will be told how to stand and act during the time they are in the cubicle.
d. They will be asked to fill out a questionnair after they have been in the cubicle for one minute.
e. They will rotate, in no special order, from one cubicle to another, until they have completed all six.
f. They will take a five minute break between cubicles.
g. A monitor will be positioned at the rear of each cubicle, monitoring body movement and reactions of the participants and the time, in seconds, that it happened.
h. Prior to the test, each chi expert will write down exactly what he plans to do and the effect it will have on the participants. Also when, during the one minute period of time, it will happen.

7. Groups of six volunteers, having no idea about what they will be tested for, will be blindfolded (or not blindfolded) and led into the six cubicles together.

I believe we can construct the cubicles and be able to select 60 volunteers who have not heard of this experiment at Camp '99. The results may not determine the Martial benefits of such chi ability, but I think that the results would help determine the presence of chi energy (or whatever we wish to call it). It is a first step.

Any comments?

[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited 09-26-98).]


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 Post subject: Measuring Chi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 1998 12:18 am 
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J.D.

If Mr. Randi wishes to get involved, or even come to Boston next year, we would certainly welcome him and ask for his suggestions regarding this experiment.

I don't have his email address. . . could you pass on the invitation. If he would like to contact me, I'm easy to reach.

Best,
George


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 Post subject: Measuring Chi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 1998 2:52 am 
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First of all, I thought I'd add to the data about the characteristics of EEG. The signal, as measured from the scalp, has an amplitude of 5-300 microvolts (0.000005 to 0.0003 volts) and a frequency of 0-150 hz (cycles per second).

I do not think it practical to measure a signal of that magnitude (or lack thereof) with a spectrum analyzer. The kind of instruments we used to measure this incredibly low signal had to be so sensitive that we ended up inadvertently picking up radio stations on the pens of the strip chart recorder. Pretty annoying!

If you want to measure brain waves, use an EEG machine. Want to measure signals floating in the air at that frequency? Good luck!

Furthermore a "magnetic field" probably cannot induce physical reactions in a body (as has been claimed by some to be a source of chi). I have submitted myself to repeated MRI in my graduate image processing class. We needed to keep our wallets well away from the MRI machine or our credit cards and ATM cards would be zapped. And we had to be completely void of metal when in the machine lest the metal device be a projectile that could do serious damage. And yet a magnetic field this strong cannot be felt by the body. I know - they used me as the ginea pig in our class and I had repeated MRIs.

But if you insist.....best way to measure subtle changes in the magnetic field around you is with a nuclear proton magnetometer. I used one on geologic expeditions in a "previous life". We mapped the strength of the magnetic field in a grid-like fashion over a broad area to find mineral deposits in the ground below.You can probably borrow one from a geologist - they are too expensive to purchase outright.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 09-27-98).]


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 Post subject: Measuring Chi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 1998 3:09 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
George

Some time you should talk with Joe Bellone, one of our own resident qigong practitioners. Joe can tell you that there are at least a half dozen Chinese characters that the chinese commonly use to describe something that we westerners call chi or qi. A lot is lost in the translations.

The biggest problem in "measuring chi" is trying to figure out what "it" is that you are attempting to measure. Time will show that "it" is problably a collection of many things (my still yet-unproven hypothesis).

Nevertheless I will give your proposal some thought and see what I can offer. I think you have a good start here. We have time. We can come up with a good experiment that shouldn't be too terribly hard to run.

Bill


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 Post subject: Measuring Chi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 1998 2:20 pm 
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To Dr. X and Dr Bill

Attention: real medical professionals:
Be careful about subjecting volunteers to stimulation that modifies brainwaves. Four years ago a Canadian neurologist Justine Sargeant subjected some students to stimuli that was not approved by her university. She took PET scans (approved) while showing them unapproved stimuli (pictures or somthing). (I don't have all the exact details, but check the medical periodicals, or NEXUS). The university went ballistic and threatened her with all kinds of nasty penalties they can heap upon MD's and the like and she cracked both her and her husband offed themselves.(True story) If you don't already know it (unlikely) maybe distancing yourself from this "experiment" be wise.

VTY
Kevin


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