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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 2:45 pm 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
I am posting this as a reference and a feeler, as I have been in contact with Sifu Mooney about his seminars. Mainly about the possibility to have one here in Massachusetts for anyone interested to attend and to actually see if what he does is real or another parlor trick.

My question is if I can keep the cost to about $30 per person how many would be seriously interested in attending. Now please be honest as I will go out on a limb to secure this if I have reliable support, as loosing my shirt with the cold of winter comming is not something I would enjoy. Please email me privately ASAP and if head count (reliable) is there I will sponsor him.
kyusho@erols.com

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 3:00 pm 
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Hi, Evan

I am probably not going to be able to attend. But if you need a donation, I will send one (as I stated in my private e-mail to you).

I am going to use this as an opportunity to post a few more pieces I received. Evan got one of these from Sifu Mooney.

Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 3:03 pm 
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EVAN AND I RECEIVED THIS ADDITIONAL POST FROM SIFU MOONEY

Bill

***********************

On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:20:01 -0500 (CDT), qimaster@usa.net wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:18:31 -0500 (CDT), you decided to say:
Okay.....
I'll bite! I am a complete and total skeptic on the issue of projecting any
type of energy over any distance of more than a few inches. I also believe
that it is more of a psychological phenomenon than physical. Even at that I
do not believe you can generate anything but heat or warmth. My
understanding of Qi disruption is that the movements of the form disrupt the
other persons Qi and that it is done at very close range. I do not think
that the performers Qi is projected as much as the other persons Qi is being
disrupted. I will however try and keep a broader mindset regarding this
issue. I am not from Missouri but I still have to be "shown" that it is
really possible. I am still an unbeliever. I see this as nothing more than
the power of suggestion. I have seen reports (and have some video) of the
investigation of such phenomenon in Russia and elsewhere. They have ALL
failed the tests. ESP included. I "ain't sayin it ain't so, I am sayin' I
don't believe it" How about someone doing an experiment on this?? Like
Zoltans 5 element experiments??
One more question...if someone can be moved...why can't they be KO'd??
Skeptically..
<Ray Mirabile>

Why? I dont know. I have never learned a method for it, or seen it done myself.
Let me make myself quite clear on this issue:
I am quite a skeptical person when it comes to many things. Unless I see something done numerous times, under many circumstances will I give anything the time of day. I did not suddenly come up with the idea "Hey, I can move someone without touching them" it happened by sheer accident. I had at that time been practicing the taiji ruler system of qigong and had been doing it for 5 years (I had gained the external qi healing ability after three years and was QUITE satisfied with that). One day I was teaching the body mechanics of punching to some of my students. One of them was hold a few very thick pads, in front of me, I focused through him and slowly brought my hand toward the pads to illustrate the body connections, when all of the sudden, the guy gets knocked back. I looked up and said "what are you doing, I did not even hit the pad"? He said he didnt know but something had knocked him off balance, and he assumed it had been my fist.
I thought this to be very curious, and decided to have another student hold the pads, thinking perhaps the guy who was holding them might be a bit "punch shy" (Cause when I hit, I HIT). So, another student is holding up the pads, and I do the same thing all over again, cause I was interrupted. The SAME thing happened. Then just for the heck of it, I retraced my mind, my thoughts and my actions and wound up duplicating the same thing (more or less, because some of them only swayed a little bit), on the rest of the people there.
This got me to thinking about the old legends, one of which concerned yang lu chans ability, and how he bounced two idiots into the water who were trying to make a name for themselves at his expense. then another story came to mind about the ability of Hsing Yi master Li Neng Ran (Li Luo Neng is another alias of his), and how he was able to wound his opponents at a distance, and they not knowing the reason how he could do such a thing.
I searched for books on qigong and came across one written by Dr Aristede Esser and Master Paul Dong, Chi Gong, Ancient Chinese Way to Health. In that book was a section on Empty Force, and this seemed to me to be what i was doing. A few days later I got a magazine from Roger Hagood's old publishing works "Wushu Qigong" and on the cover was Paul Dong doing his thing. In the magazine was his address, I wrote to him, and he sent me his phone number. I called, told him what I could do, and he told me he could train me to do it better and faster. So I learned from him beginning in 1993, and here I am 5 years later, and my ability has strengthened. many Tuite List people who have been to jacksonville florida and houston texas have seen what I can do. a skeptical doctor named Bouton thought I was a fake too, and was at houston to see if I was just a scam artist. He wound up nearly throwing up because he decided to resist so hard.
here is his thoughts on what happend (I saved the post)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From obgcgb@ttuhsc.edu Mon Jul 28 09:31:54 1997

*************************************************
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:31:54 -0500
To: <tuite@bluegate.com>
From: obgcgb@ttuhsc.edu
Subject: DSI South Convention


**Snip of information***
Rich Mooney then stepped in for a session. Sifu Mooney proceeded to do
in the class room what he had been doing since the start of the convention
the previous night, demonstrating his lin kong jing abilities. Now for the
clincher, I was there as a plant to see if Mooney was on the level. Most
of this took place before his classroom session. Sifu Mooney was in an
adjoining room on the previous night demonstrating his lin kong jing
ability primarily by one method, the swaying motion of an individual. Now
as a psychologist and medical type individual, I am very aware of some
natural phenomenae that could account for this swaying. Mooney's
methodology was to have someone stand, feet close together, relax, and
generally eyes closed. Mooney would make a number of motions (looking sort
of abracadabaraish) and as the person swayed front to back, Mooney appeared
to move in harmony with this guy, thus claiming to cause the sway. He
would do the same thing with a number of people in a line, each placing
their hands on the shoulders of the one in front. Of course in the line
the sway was more dramatic.
Well all humans have a harmonic type of wave motion when they stand with
their feet together and relaxed. Put them in a line and the action of the
ones attached to them joins their own motion and you get a dramatic effect.
No chi, just physics and physiology. Mooney also demonstrated swaying
through a door, with his subject with their back to the door to demonstrate
it wasn't a visual key. I was not impressed. Again the normal harmonic
swaying would occur whether Mooney was there or not.
This is not , however, to say that Sifu Mooney was having no effect on
the subject. But a more advanced type of investigation was necessary to
determine if Sifu Mooney would have an effect. I was finally chosen as a
subject. Sifu Mooney placed me with my back to him and began to do his
thing. I lightly rooted. This would greatly limit my normal harmonic
swaying, while still allowing me to remain relaxed. I also kept my eyes
open and focused on a point in the room. Again this would reduce my
unconscious swaying motion. If Sifu Mooney could indeed have an influence with his chi abilities to effect me, I would be able to tell this.
Well after nearly a minute of little or no motion, Mooney starts to tell
the watching crowd that this was an example of a "negative" effect.
Apparently, what little swaying motion I had was exactly opposite of Sifu
Mooney's motions. That explaination also didn't impress me. After many
years as a performing magician, I too had learned to take credit for, and
indicate to my audience that things that happened , which I didn't expect
to happen, did happen because I intended for them to, and took the credit.
Yet, there was one unrefutable thing. While I was standing still, with
my back to Sifu Mooney. I felt a force litterally reach into my abdomen
and start to push and pull my intestines and stomach. It was making me a
little queezy. I didn't say much about it when Sifu Mooney finished his
negative reaction speech, but said something to the effect of, "that seemed
to make me a little queezy, kind of like something was pushing my gut
around. Mooney came over immediately and said he would "wash me down", and
passed his hands along either side of my torso, and in a few seconds my
stomach was again very settled and calm.
Sifu Mooney next began to do a line demonstration, and to my surprise,
picked me to be the front person in the line. The others lined up behind
me placing their hands on the shoulders of the one in front. Sifu Mooney
began his motions, and I felt the harmonic movement begin in the line
behind me, I rooted hard. I had no movement. Even the guy behind me, with
his hands pushing and pulling on my shoulders was not budging me even a
fraction of an inch, but otherwise I appeared relaxed. As the line's sway
increased, Sifu Mooney warned me not to resist. In the next instant, I had
to stop him, the same stomach action had been taking place in me again, it
had been increasing in intensity, and I was about to toss my cookies on
Sifu Mooney and on Mr. Tucker's floor. Sifu Mooney again obliged and
settled my stomach with his healing action. I was definately impressed. I
have studiend with internal stylists before, including chinese Hsing I
sifus's. I knew that if Sifu Mooney's lin kong jin ability was anything
more than a parlor trick, it would have had a peculiar internal effect on
me. It definitly did. I also had four individuals attending the seminar
with me from the American Karate Black Belt Association High Dan Board.
You could not find four greater skeptics in your life. These were men who
fought back in the Texas Blood and Guts bare knuckle days of the 60's. Who
had 30+ years in karate each, and who weren't going to be impressed by
parlor tricks. Not to mention that a couple of them did not believe in chi
of any form, especially healing forms.
One had a sever shoulder injury several months ago. He is approximately
60 years old, and the injury wasn't healing. He has seen physicians, has
been receiving physical therapy, and it was looking more and more like a
torn rotator cuff, which would require surgery. I went and got him and
brought him to Sifu Mooney. Mooney knew immediately what his problem was,
even before it was explained. He put his hands on either side of the
subject's shoulder, no touching, in a few seconds the subject who had been
rambling away about how he got the injury, suddently began to say, "Hey,
I'm feeling a lot of heat in there." While Mooney wasn't able to totally
heal the injury. His subject in a few seconds was moving his arm in a much
larger range of motion than he had previously been able to move it, felt
much less pain. In fact he was able to sleep through the night for the
first time in a long time. A second treatment the next morning enabled the
subject to do all the very physical technique practices during the day.
Something his shoulder would not have previously permitted him to do. Even
on the way to the airport on Sunday morning, the subject could not believe
how good his shoulder now felt.
I also presented a second subject, who has had a chronic neck pain for
over 25 years, that medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic had failed
to relieve. Sifu Mooney, again without knowing what the ailment or injury
was, quickly diagnosed it, again moved his hands around the effected area,
without touching, in a few seconds, the subject was pain free and able to
revolve his head and neck through the full range of motion, completely pain
free. This was something he could not do for the past 25 years. Did it
last? Well Sunday when he got on the plane it was still working.

Photius+
Fr. Photius Bouton
Holy Theophany Russian Orthodox Church
Lubbock, Tx

a.k.a.
Charles G. Bouton, Ph.D.
Administrator
Dept. Ob/Gyn
Texas Tech Univ. HSC
Lubbock, TX

Kokusai Dai Ni Gojuryu Karate Kyokai Homepage:
http://members.aol.com/dainigoju/ingka/index.htm
American Karate Black Belt Association Homepage:
http://members.aol.com/akbbacshk/karate/index.htm



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

lastly dont think for a minute that if what I did didnt work, that I would still be doing it. Hell no, I would not waste a second of my valuable time on something that was impossible to do. I was, at the time I came out with my ability 2 years after beginning my training, alrerady well respected as a tournament competitor in Kung Fu, a writer for Karate International, a State rep for a non profit organization, and a public speaker against hard drugs and alcohol, 2 things that nearly killed me some years ago.... but I digress....
I was already a seminar draw for my ability in Chin na, and the Taiji Ruler system, for me at that time, that was good enough.
Then people wanted more and more to see the lin kong jing, and I obliged them. to date I cannot tell you how many hundreds of people I have shown this method to. probably a few thousand if you count all the middle and high school presentations I have done for the Federation of United Martial Artists, and also the seminars I have put on and been sponsored to do in illinois, nebraska, texas, minnesota, canada and belgium. I will also be the first to admit it is not a foolproof 100% effective method. Some people get really whacked out and sick from it, some take a while to move or feel it and some dont feel it at all. Well La Dee Da, the same thing can be said of any martial arts system NONE of them is 100% effective 100% of the time. NOTHING IS.
SO, if my ability is not 100% effective 100% of the time, why do i still do it? BECAUSE I get more positive results than negative results, and the ability gets stronger year by year. If it was BS does anyone think for a minute that people like Michael DePasquale Jr, Wally Jay, Leon Jay, George Dillman, Ron van Clief, Tom Countryman, Rick Moneymaker, Tom Muncy, or anyone else for that matter, would give me the time of day? HELL NO.
SO, on I go, one of very very very few westerners (read that anglo and american) to have this ability. I trained people to develop this ability. I have a huge book, and a great video tape that can be used by anyone who has the cojones to do the arduous training, to gain the ability for themselves. thats the way it is.
I get flamed by people who dont know what in the world they are talking about, and by those who think I am doing the medical KONG JING, which is NOTHING like what I am doing, not the postures, not the applications. They seem to think there is some hypnosis, psychological conditioning, shills, witchcarft, satanism and any other off the wall cockamamie idea or thing that would be the "real" reason behind the ability. ALL except the one thing which IT IS: IT IS FOR REAL.
So, I can only spread myself around so thin. I will never be able in my life to demo before all the skeptics in the world, those alive, and those not yet born. BUT I dont give a CRA*, because THEY are the ones with the problem with it. I will keep on doing what I am doing, and doing it for the most part extremely well, and they will continue making the hypothesis of why what I can do cannot be done. They are all blowing more smoke than that crackpot magician and skeptic in florida at one of his miserable little shows.
To those of you who have seen what I can do, I applaud you for your time, for those of you who have become students of mine and are beginning to get the results I have gained, I applaud you for having the cojones to actually get up off your butts and actually research and experience this ability for yourselves. To those of you who are just too skeptical and too lazy to actually deal with a REAL discipline such as standing meditation is, TOO BAD FOR YOU.
sincerely,

Richard Mooney
Senior Student of
Master Paul Dong


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 3:10 pm 
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I SOLICITED THE FOLLOWING RESPONSE FROM BRUCE MILLER. HE SELLS MATERIAL THAT GIVES A WESTERN MEDICINE EXPLANATION FOR KYUSHO THAT IS VOID OF THE WORD "KI" OR "CHI" OR "QI'. I HAVE SOME OF HIS MATERIAL AND RECOMMEND YOU CHECK IT OUT. THE PRODUCTION QUALITY MAY BE LOW BUT THE CONTENT IS REASONABLY GOOD. CHECK OUT HIS HOME PAGE WHEN YOU GET A CHANCE:

www.cloudnet.com/~bemiller/#SOPTvsM

BILL

*************************

WOW that was an long and intense post. OK yes you can post my comments publicly.

First off let me say PUBLICALLY that I do not think that Mr. Mooney is a fake! I am not saying that to be nice or political. I really do believe he has the talent to do what he says. I do not agree with his explanation of WHY he is able to do what he does but again believe he is a valid!
Now I do believe that it is a MENTAL talent which with the proper exercise / training can be developed IN people who have a latent talent and NOT in people who do not have the talent.

No the easiest I can describe the talent is emotional communication ON A subconscious level. And if you are familiar with this situation then you are aware of the implications/ limitations.

AGIAN though this is NOT telekinesis we are talking about. (Even Mr. Mooney acknowledges this! I only wish personally that it was .... sigh) Thus there WILL be many people who can feel this effect even if they do not recognize it on a conscious level. Yet there will be some who will not.

so therefore I believe the claims/ statements that Mr. Mooney made just not his Chi explanation. However let me add in closing that for Mr. Mooney the exercise he does have worked and while I do not believe that these are the only way to improve your talent obviously they work for him!

Bruce


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:50 pm 
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ok I'll bite, sign me up for any seminar to experince what Mr. Mooney is offering. First though, I am new to this. Who is Mr. Mooney, what does he claim (in English please, no chinese), what is his background etc...

thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 8:10 pm 
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Hi, Tracy

There is plenty about him in the three "Moving experiences" threads. Basically he purports to be able to cause a physical reaction in people without touching them. He claims that this is qi based. The reaction can be anything from physically being knocked back to a digestive disorder. Please read his own material for details as his claims stand on their own without me having to paraphrase.

Why would this be important? By itself it means nothing. However just as a development process like weight training whose effect we could measure via increased strenght _might_ translate into marginally better martial performance, so a development process like this _may_ be significant if it can be part of a total power delivery system. But this assumes that the phenomenon is legitimate. And the _mechanism_ of a phenomenon like this - if it is legitimate - may explain other phenomena we observe in the martial arts.

Or it may just be the latest parlor trick.

Best to have an open and sharp mind (and often a hand on your back pocket).

Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 1998 9:57 pm 
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Perhaps we can convince Mr. Mooney to join us at camp '99 where we can all participate in demonstrations and discussions.

If it is not feasible to do it earlier, can you guys pass along my invitation?

After reading moving 3 posts, I get the feeling that what Mr. Mooney is doing may be closely related to what Steve Benson does in the healing arts. Steve claims that he can help people heal themselves through the kind of energy force Mr. Mooney uses to make people move etc. He can also relieve constipation in the same manner Mr. Mooney seems to use.

Having actually experienced Steve's ability to help my injured back (and my own ability to be helped by Steve), I would tend to believe there is an energy field that a trained or naturally gifted person develops/possesses, that can be passed to/into/through another person. However, I don't believe it should be classified as a martial art any more then acupuncture or other arts that may be performed by martial artist.

Steve doesn't know how he developed his gift. He remembers being able to use it very young in life and with time a practice (which includes meditation) it appears to get stronger.

It would be very interesting to invite some of our local Chinese healers and martial artist, along with Mr. Mooney and Steve Benson to participate in some carefully constructed experiments designed to learn more about what they do.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 12:32 am 
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Hello Van and All...

Thanks Van for asking my opinion, here is
what I have seen and what I know...

As for the "relative kyusho secrets", the
type of "kyusho" training is VERY different then what many Americans teach or have seen in the states. There is very little if any "multi-strike" or what to some refer to as "set ups". In keeping with the main thinking of many of the Okinawan teachers both Uechi and non-Uechi, there is more of an emphisis on a more "combative" application. Most of what I have seen in Okinawan lends more to being able to apply certain strikes in a real situation, and not so much on just hitting a non-moving target.
Basically, the strikes are intended to "take a person out" and or to cause real damage.
I learned much of what I know of this subject from Masters Kanei Uechi, Nakahodo, and Hokama of Goju Ryu.

( Just an interesting side note... but Master Nakahodo stated that he learned most of his methods from his father and grandfather, who were both Shorin ryu teachers.)

As for why many Americans do not know this, I am not sure, my opinion is that perhaps not many had been on Okinawa long enough to be able to be shown them. I was a godan with Kanei (and had trained with him for almost 4 years) when he started to show me certain info on how to strike an opponent. As for Master Nakahodo, it was part of many classes with him. I think many times that when Americans did visit, many of the Okinawans are to busy working on "the basics" to really teach any advanced techniques. Also, that many teacher are open with this info as long as the student is ready to be able to perform them corectly. Master Takara, in his recent visit to my dojo, stated that every technique is a "kyusho" attack, if one understands how to perform them. Again I would like to say that there is a grave difference from what is taught/accepted in the states and what is done in Okinawa, and not just in "Uechi".

As for the "shell" I think that is best left for private e-mail...

Hope this helps.

Mark J Brelsford


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 5:22 am 
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Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply ! I basically share your sentiments on the kyusho concept ! In his trips to the US , Masters Nakahodo and Tomoyose did work with me and others on the same subject matter of 'vital points' and manner of striking ! I recall Nakahodo sensei showing me a double thrust Sanchin opening move and grabbing the sides of the body in such a way that I had difficulty breathing ! It did get across the message of powerful applications above all , that is why I train that way and have difficulty adjusting to the ' tapping ' concepts of kyusho as I have seen it performed , with the exception of an impressive knockout by Evan at the throat of someone with a move from our sanseiryu going for a natural target ! That was a one handed knockout without 'setups' shots of the type that one of us would do in a real fight!

Tracy Rose and I believe that the whole of the human body is one huge pressure point if hit with tree chopping power and extreme prejudice ! The kyusho concept , as you are aware , is that light tapping can accomplish the same goal without the severe repercussions of criminal /civil liability for excessive force ! It seems this works for cops who have a different dynamics of encounters than ordinary citizens !

What bothers me is what Dillman sensei says with regard to 'Oriental masters ' not having revealed all this information about 'nerve strikes' to anyone until just recently ! It seems a paradox given that there have been so many foreigners who spent years on end in the Orient under many different disciplines !

Regards ,

Van


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 Post subject: xcl
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 5:59 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:22 am 
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This exchange has been fascinating. I remember how mesmerized I was a few years back when I was watching Bill Moyers' Healing and the Mind segment on Chi. I still must say that while scheptical on the whole idea of throwing people across rooms or causing upset stomachs, a part of me still wants to believe that there is some truth to all this. I may be going on a limb here but I often think of the way our body operates and wonder if things like electro chemical reactions in the brain or nerve impulses perhaps might be the basis of the mysterious Chi.

Yes I know..I'm stretching ..far..very far..but its been a long week. Thanks for your responses.

David in Sacramento Image


[This message has been edited by David in Sacramento (edited 09-25-98).]


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 Post subject: xcl
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 1:43 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 2:04 pm 
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Regarding my post pertaining to one of Mr. Mooney's tests, involving lining up people:

I should have looked up the reference so my comment would be more accurate. In fact, the message I read stated. . .

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Rich walked in, faced the line then threw his hands up. The entire line collapsed.


. . . and did not say Mr. Mooney "shouted"!

Sorry about this mistake.

Now that we have this detail correct, I must say that I still stand by my statement. The fact that Mr. Mooney made any sudden movement instead of "shouting" would have the same effect on the kids. The fact that the kids were told to link up with the kids in front of them and the fact that Mr. Mooney had to do anything to set off this "chain reaction" makes me skeptical of the outcome.

Once again I wish to state that I am in no way trying to discredit Mr. Mooney and as stated in another post, believe that their is some kind of energy, which we don't understand, that Mr. Mooney is demonstrating. I just don't agree with the enhancement techniques he uses to magnify the results. Any trickery used to demonstrate a valid point, tends to discredit any results obtained. I would rather see tests set up , using no props or tricks and measure the results, however miniscule, of the actual energy being released or the effects such energy release has on volunteers.

As also stated in an earlier post, I would welcome Mr. Mooney's participation in next year's Cape Cod Camp.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 2:44 pm 
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Gentlemen

*Most* of the furniture in the room appears to be intact. Good!

I would like to remind ALL that we have some very distinguished individuals participating in this discussion. The amount of useful dialogue will be indirectly proportional to the amount of taunting. There's so much fun to be had without the unnecessary, right? As frustrating as it is to have your point of view challenged, in the end the truth quietly speaks louder than the static.

To Sifu Mooney - you really should come to camp in Cape Cod. It has the most eclectic group of martial artist you'll see on the east coast. Every distinguished guest gets put on a menu of seminars that are taught outdoors to a broad array of martial artists. You would be able to both teach to audiences that choose to work with you as well as view other seminars that go the range from kyusho to kobudo to meditation to stretching to the most fundamental movements of our most basic forms. As "western" as I am to my approach to martial arts and medicine, I have managed to get some freebie accupuncture, accupressure, and chiropractic while at the camps. Evan, Van, George and I each teach at these camps, and it is a wonderful opportunity to exchange ideas and renew friendships. You would not be dissappointed!

As for Mr. Randi, well obviously an offer has been made. I don't know how these things are done, but I'd be willing to help if necessary. Maybe we might even have him at the camp, George! But the venue is entirely up to Sifu Mooney. And certainly I hope you are made richer if there is new, legitimate knowledge that we all could benefit from.

Bill


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 Post subject: xcl
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 1998 9:53 pm 
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