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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 1998 11:37 pm 
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Funny how small the world can be. I have this student intern from a masters program in health services administration working for me for a year. Turns out he is a ju jitsu player. Anyway he showed me this article by Thomas in the September issue of Black Belt where it shows folks from Dillman's group (DKI) working with researchers at University of Pennsylvania on assessing the physiologic response to Light Force Knockouts (LFKOs). If you haven't already, get a copy of the article and peruse it.

I have some comments:

1) Take a look at the technique Dillman is using to knock the wired-up guy out on page 64. Does that posture look familiar or what? Only thing different is you might expect him to be in a *left* sanchin. Not really a significant difference.

2) Thankfully the article was not filled with a lot of hype and crapola. It's certainly much better than what I normally expect out of Black Belt. No pictures of Bruce Lee!. No Ninjas (in *that* article)!

3) I found that Thomas was trying *real* hard not to put himself in a position of instigating flame wars (chi vs no chi). You could walk into that article and read anything into it you wanted. Clever....maybe; maybe a little too wishy washy. But I think he maximized his reachable audience with this approach.

4) The article was all about a clinical assessment of an Okinawan art. Why was this lay person writing the article? Where are the references? Oooooppps - forgot this was Black Belt magazine. I'm sorry if I sound arrogant, but then I don't care. I wish he didn't find it necessary to dumb down so much. He effectively left us with little more than a bunch of pictures.

5) For those who aren't in the know, what was accomplished on that one day has to amount to what most in the research field would call "preliminary data". There really wasn't much in the way of a proper experimental design here. But then again, I can appreciate that they first wanted to see if they could measure anything and if the protocol was too dangerous to even consider doing. There is a place for "preliminary work" in the scheme of things. Bottom line - you folks shouldn't expect too much out of this effort. This is step one of many.

6) Take a look at the photo on page 65 of the raised, red area on the back, kidney area of the subject (in the shape of a hand print). They write: "This kidney knockout is one of the few pressure-point maneuvers to leave a mark on the subjects.....The hand print - which included palm lines and was surrounded by an area of reddened and raised flesh - resempled the aural images recorded with Kirlian photography." Puuullleeeeze! Sounds like some of the granola-head crapola seen on an unnamed home page of the kyusho chi boys with our hero complete with Kirlian photos when in a hi-chi mode. Has ANYONE out there NOT raised flesh like this in a SIMPLE sanchin test? If not....well...never mind.

But all in all, the article was better than what I expected. And our local hero (Evan Pantazi) is mentioned as part of the effort.

Would love to hear your comments.

By the way, please see "Losing it - Part II" below for some of my former comments on LFKOs.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-16-98).]


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 1998 1:35 am 
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Bill San,

Section 1. Sanchin position may have been used this way for measurement purposes or to avoid the wiring or instruments attached to his body as a lot of the KOs had to be adjusted for these and other reasons. As I was taught the RyuKyu Sanchin and that stance is identical to Uechis'.

Section 2. I second the hoorah!

Section 3. This was not about Chi thus no mention, it was about what western approaches could ascertain about Kyusho KO's.

Section 4. Chris Thomas is a Sixth Dan in RyuKyu Kempo (last I heard) and a clergyman, of what denomination or other signification I do not know. And the article was "dumbed down" I suppose cause it was Black Belt first and second they get final edit. Chris Thomas is an extremely intellegent individual didn't get alot of feedback to report on from the inconclusive reports from nuerologists and other medical professionals in the study.

Section 5. The "first study" was just a means to eliminate the obvious, (drop in blood pressure, brain or heart stimulation...), there will be more.

Section 6. The sarcasm got my chi into a dander Bill San. This was not reported (nor did the photo record the true sight, but the amazing thing with this palm mark was not a red print, we've all been there, but rather the hand print after 20 minutes mirror imaged over to the other kidney (a predicted event). This was not as complete as to see the "Life Line and Joint Lines" as was in the original (through a double weave Judo Gi as well), but a red palm mark that was not in the original photo in the magazine just after revival. The original palm print had faint red lines eminating for lack of a better word from the print thus the "Krilian" image.

This was the first medical study ever compiled on this we should respect the effort and the cut and dry reporting of it devoid of the typical Hype.

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 1998 1:35 am 
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I forgot to mention that the individual being KO'ed by Dillman Sensei is Ed Lake, 7th Degree RyuKyu Kempo and one of the most capable and knowledgable men involved with Kyusho that I have met (great down to earth individual as well).

Evan Pantazi

[This message has been edited by evanpantazi (edited 10-18-98).]


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 1998 2:21 pm 
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Evan San

I get my "chi" in a dander when people start with the Kirlian photography. It doesn't measure anything physiologically interesting, but there are some in the chi camp that try to make it more than it is. To most, the comment may have flown right over their heads. I've seen the photos of Rick Moneymaker on the DSI home page. I think THAT is a bunch of hogwash (but what do I REALLY think???). I was under the impression (a good guess, but only a guess) that the author was making more than a literal comparison. He could have left the comment out.

Now what YOU wrote is MUCH more interesting. This kind of physiologic mirroring, if it occurs, is not entirely unbelievable. There is a lot of mirroring or "cross talk" of signal accross the body for both conscious and unconscious (autonomic) neurological mechanisms. In some cases the "mirroring" is actually complimentary: one pulls away from pain with the right hand and unconsciously wildly pushes with the left. If you note how the control mechanisms work and where the neural pathways go, it isn't unreasonable to expect a response to a significant insult to be bilateral. So...why wasn't THAT reported and the Kirlian reference left out? Too bad. My lesson from years of science is to report all observations and reserve comment until you've had time to digest. Sometimes things that you don't think to be significant at first turn out to be the most significant part of the whole endeavor. Such was the case with my dissertation; it's the reason I have the letters behind my name today.

Anyhow, it doesn't take away from my impression of it (overall) being a very good article and a very careful, measured first step. Hurray for the whole lot of them. Give them all my best and my compliments.

Bill


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