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 Post subject: Losing it: Part II
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 1998 8:52 pm 
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The previous thread by david and the response by J.D. has my wheels turning. Seems like we have a smart person or two around the table. This seems like a good opportunity to talk about "light force" knockouts (LFK).

I have heard the chi explanations of LFK. They are what they are. I wouldn't mind hearing more as I can always learn new things from a different perspective. I've done some reading on the subject from a more traditional anatomy and physiology point of view.

In his book "The Complete Book of Light Force Knockouts", Bruce Miller classifies LFKs into three different types:

1) The percussive or shockwave knockout. This type of knockout happens whenever a shockwave is sent towards the Reticular Activating Sytem & Basal Ganglion area. Whenever you succeed with a properly angled strike that sends the shockwave towards these regions of the brain, the Raphi Nucleus will cause a shut down. Many movements in our Uechi kata can accomplish this feat using simple principles of physics. And there are even very creative ways of doing this without even touching the head!

2) Vascular & Blood Pressure knockouts. One commonly thinks of a strike to the carotid baroreceptor as an easy way to accomplish this. Miller thinks this unreliable in folks under age 40. Instead he suggests that there are better ways to accomplish this via torso strikes. Such strikes can overexcite ALL the baroreceptors (aortic arch too) at the same time. The resulting sudden pressure drop shuts the brain down.

3) Stimulus Overload knockouts. Basically this works by overloading the Raphi Nucleus with too much input from overstimulation of sensitive pressure points. Pain is usually the "input", but there are other stimuli that can create the proper summation effect when you perform the proper sequence of strikes at the proper timing and at the proper angles.

No chi mentioned yet.

Miller speaks of the relative level of danger of these various LFKs.

The vascular ones he classifies as the MOST dangerous, partly because of the problems associated with achieving a maximal result. Shots to the liver and spleen are great at getting the desired effect, but there is always the after effect of this. And needless to say, brain ischemia is the modus operendum.

The stimulus overload knockouts he classifies as the least damaging, but the most unreliable. The main reason for the unreliability is that you can always run up against a seasoned Uechi practitioner who has spent significant time with Iron Shirt training (e.g. kotekitae). If I can't even get Yonamine to whince, I can't expect him to drop very easily from this type of strike or sequence of strikes. For those who study in the school of chi, they classify these folks as "nonresponders".

The percussive or shockwave strikes can be seen to cause possible brain damage by the mere mechanism. Shock waves floating through the brain? That's healthy!

So after all is said and done, we have Joe Victim asleep on the floor with the birds flying around his head. Miller suggests that ANY type of knockout causes permanent damage; that there is something inherently bad going on in the brain whenever we make it shut down. Given these non-chi-type mechanisms, can we say he is always true?

Gee, I bet I know someone who might be able to answer this one....

Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 09-29-98).]


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 Post subject: Losing it: Part II
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 1998 12:37 pm 
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Ah Bill San,

Before I start this is not to be inflamatory or sarcastic just a question I raise in regard to this subject all the time.

I am glad people such as the nuerological team that did the preliminary study at the University in Philly or Bruce Miller, are looking into this for some answers. Until then it seems everything we do in modern times from eating to breathing to watching TV is now harmful. So then the question could now be is it safer to do 2 or 3 LFK's a year, or spar once or twice a week, or play soccer once a week, or quaf an ale once or twice a week, or slam your palm on your forhead once a week (a day for some in higher stress positions). Is it possible that the attempted chokes in Jujitsu even though released before the partner blacks out have the same damaging effects. Let's face it anything that makes the head seem not right seems damaging to the brain, (now I have a reason for not riding those nausea inducing rides at the carnival, go for it kids). All this without Chi as well, again Chi is a label or term for the energy that travels throughout the body, Western terms are somewhat longer in their wording, but none the less still not completely understood. Any disruption in a normal energetic flow/nerve impulse/etc. is just that a disruption. What are the adverse affects of deadening the nerve tissue with Kontikite.

I have posted this as to offset some paranoia that these studies bring out in folks, not as a rebuttle. By the way in a real situation I still would prefer a LFK light force KO compared to a whomp upside the head that makes my brain bounce around my skull a bit, ripping little tissues, bruising grey matter, etc.

Hope to talk with you on the Kyusho Chat tonight.

Evan Pantazi


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 Post subject: Losing it: Part II
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 1998 1:51 pm 
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Evan san

Points well taken.

I am bringing this material up because Bruce Miller is such an alarmist about LFKs. What I want is some first principles descriptions of what is going on (in more detail than I have given) during an LFK so I can judge for myself whether or not to be concerned.

Yes, the "choke hold" (lateral vascular neck restraint) is indeed an ischemic event to the brain. Is it permanently harmful in any way? I can probably safely say that a short ischemic event per se is not going to be harmful. What I don't know is what goes on after this. What DO the neurons in the central brain experience when the RN, BG and such are transmitting garbage? I have heard among the physician community that there are a certain percentage of people who go under anesthesia that suffer permanent cognitive changes. Is this true? This is a very, very controlled "KO". I have seen publications that suggest that individuals who undergo KOs show changes in their EEG about 6 months or so after the event. How comprehensive is this group that shows these changes. If the changes are statistically significant, are they clinically significant (just because we can measure a change doesn't mean that it affects our standard of living or quality of life in any measurable way)?

What is my goal in asking all these questions? Fist and foremost, I want to understand it better. There isn't a lot in the medical literature about KOs, much less LFKs. Physicians are primarily concerned with healing, not knocking each other out in the dojo. The MDs only jump on the research bandwagon when they find enough people experiencing an event that it is a concern for the average physician or if it shows us something mechanistically that teaches us something we didn't know before. I am only secondarily concerned about the long term effects of LFKs per se.

Often we ask questions only to learn more. Some think they REALLY know everything there is to know about a process. I can remember visiting one of my former grad school classmates at Eli Lilly in Indianappolis. He had a laboratory that studied how defibrillation worked. Really! People have been doing this for generations and think they know exactly how this works. When I saw the details, I was surprised that there was a lot beneath the surface in this whole phenomenon. Why was it important? Why fry the chest and have the patient bouncing off the table if you can cardiovert a patient with minimal physical damage?

It's also like the process of electroshock therapy. Folks used to stick something inside the mouth of the patient and fry their brain so that the face contorted and the body convulsed. Now that we understand the whole process of neurotransmitters and affective disorders as well as the electrophysiology which increases neurotransmitter levels, the actual signal that is given to the brain to accomplish the same these days is barely enough to notice on an EEG machine.

I think I can safely say we are a long way off from completely knowing what is going on here. Being a good technician is one thing. You are a good kyusho technician - much better than I. Being able to understand what is really going on is something else. When that happens, we can shed the inefficient paradigms of the past and create new and better ways of doing things. That's my job.

Bill


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 Post subject: Losing it: Part II
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 1998 3:57 pm 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Bill San,

Nice post and I will always be open to real reasons and explainations. I will let you also know how Sifu Mooney does in November.

Yours,
Evan


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 Post subject: Losing it: Part II
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 1998 2:33 pm 
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J.D.

Maybe it's time to take some of that hard-earned money and invest in some clock cycles and RAM. You shouldn't be left in a situation where your mind is working faster than your computer.

And if your computer is slower than your fingers, Oye!!!! {grin}

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-19-98).]


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