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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 1:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
I am looking for opinions, theories or facts
on a little question. I willing to accept
physics, chi descriptions, anything (I'll even listen to J.D. Image ).

Which delivers more power the straight lunge or reverse punch (not a jab) or a hooking punch (either a literal hook or uppercut)?

I find when I work the heavy bag the hooks seem to do more, and I was always told that your have more energy close in (and the hook is in general close range punch). Experimental evidence. Hold hand close in, hard to push down, hold hand out, easy to push down. For example. However, I tried a board break to see if the theory held out and found even a double board break to be much more difficult. How odd to have conflicting evidence.

Again, any thoughts?

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 4:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 29, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 204
Jason,

I agree that more power can be generated with a 'hooking' technique. My guess about the difficulty breaking is that you may end up not hitting a flat target, like a board, as squarely with a hooking technique...

greg


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 8:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 203
Location: Florida
Jason:

Most good fighters and especially boxers throw a hook with more power coming from the technique of dipping down and torquing the hip as they throw the hook. Watch a skilled boxer and notice how he really hunkers down while delivering the blow.

Bruce Lee's famous 1 inch punch came from this amplification through the hara thrust and hip torque powering up through the punch.

What's neat about delivering the hook with the boxer technique is you can get the head out and down from oncoming counter attacks.(I think B. Lee was also fascinated with boxing as a martial art, particularly interested in the hook)


JohnC


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 1:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Jason,

Not sure there is a set answer here. The strongest punch is the one you do "right" (or near right). Some folks do straight punches better than hooks, or visa versa. Regardless, as John pointed out, the right punch will involve the hips and legs.

The hook is a very, very powerful tool. Those who like and use it effectively will not be afraid to be very "up close and personal" with the opponent.

david


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 181
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Jason:

Great observation. What feels best on the makiwara? I have been told that punching across the body (the punch in the Naihanchi/Tekki kata) is the most powerful way to punch. C.W. Nichol relates using this technique with good success in his book Moving Zen. On the other hand (is this guy a lawyer or what?) my Shotokan instructor believed the lunge punch was the most powerful, and as he delivered it straight, with speed and power from the hips, I could not gainsay his opinion.

As for me, the reverse punch feels best on the makiwara. I think for many of us though,it is not the power of the punch that is the limiting factor, it is the strength of the weapon. Many can punch more powerfully than they do beacause they are limited by the ability of their fists to take the impact. Having suffered through various hand injuries (mostly related to basketball and softball, not martial arts) I have found the hardest thing to get back is the strength in the weapon, not the punch.

Anyway, it sounds like what ever you use will have its intended effect. Peace.


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 1998 7:51 pm 
Hello Jason,

One of the things that worked, for me anyway, in terms of faster more powerful hook punche delivery was to work on the fast-twitch nerve movement activating the pectorals. I also focused on building pec strength. Without those, my hook punch was a slow push into the target.

I watched Sensei Arthur Rabesa deliver his front punch in what he calls a 'hiccup' which I believe is the same fast-twitch type of movement.

Allen


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 1998 7:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 21, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 18
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Howdy folks!!

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the ring... I've always felt that the greatest power is realized from motions involving the hips. As such, spinning kicks would reign supreme (discounting momentum sources similar to joisting - running into the opponent while extending a weapon, which is hard to get away with at close quarters). Unfortunately, utilizing this power source always seems to invlove those pesky vulnerabilities. For example, if your shoulders extend much beyond "square", you leave yourself open to being thrown (or worse) since your shoulder joint becomes exposed to various nifty manipulations. A well-performed straight punch invloves hip motions that are more subtle than a spinning technique (via push-pull principles), and thus taps hip power (my belief being that our butts are the largest muscles, and thus need to be tapped for punching - the whole point of the Sanchin back to me) without too much risk of the shoulder moving out of square. It is even easier to tap this hip power in a roundhouse punch. Unfortunately, as this technique crosses into 'haymaker' territory, we find ourselves faced with all kinds of vulnerabilities - shoulder, balance, even visual contact with your opponent. For the same reason that I reject the spinning back kick (in most cases) due to the opportunities it opens for my opponent, I am very leery of fully-developed/torqued round-house punches.

Well, I seem to be rambling on - probably due to the conversations I've had with Bud tonight. Hope this brought a different look to your question.

Chris Long
(way out in Arizona)


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 1998 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Howdy Chris,

The hooking punches (so called "haymakers") you are describing are not the punches of a "trained" boxer/fighter. Yes, indeed, if you extend your arm fully out there, you can end up losing it, never mind making it easier to see and block or enter into. Also, there is nothing backing the fist when it hits. With a straight punch, direction of power comes/goes straight up the legs, hips, body, shoulder arm, wrist and fist. With the haymaker, the fist comes swinging around and there is nothing backing that fist, minimizing the power generated through legs, hips, etc., (that's not to say a person with a lot of mass can't generate knockout power with the arm/fist like that.) In fact, a good hook will have the arm in the "square" position, i.e elbow bent. On a good hook, the fist and elbow should travel pretty much along the same plane. The hook is initiated with a torque of the hips, followed milliseconds later by the bent arm/fist. Pretty much the whole body gets involved in the punch.

My words don't do justice to the mechanics of the hook. Best to look tapes of the old Floyd Patterson, Frazier, Duran or even Tyson fights. Where you throw the hook generally is closer to the opponent then the ideal range for the straight punch. If you look at distance continuum of hand strikes, it goes from jabs, crosses, hooks/uppercuts to elbows.

The saying "all is sanchin" is not totally accurate... The hook and body mechanics for it are not in sanchin. Image

david


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 1998 2:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
>>Of course, that's in practice...I don't know what happens when it does
hog-wild...I can only hope that it stays as close to Sanchin as
possible...<<

Anthony, because I consider you a friend, I hope when it's "for real" that whatever you do, you do effectively... Doesn't matter if it looks like sanchin, boxing, mud wrestling or ballet...

david


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 1998 2:40 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17143
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Folks

Interesting discussion.

I think there is one other issue here that folks are not considering. Let's take it from an engineering perspective.

Part of the issue is defining your question properly. What do you mean when you ask which punch is more powerful. If one punch is better at breaking a board than another, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a "superior" puch.

Chris touched on this a little earlier with his comment about momentum. There are several factors involved in delivering energy to your opponent. Now ideally you want to cause surface damage rather than just lift or push them. Thus you want an impulse (a word with engineering meaning). However, the momentum that follows that impulse can be part of the "power" of the technique, depending of course on where you are hitting and what you are trying to do. I talked a bit earlier in George's post about the one punch kill of the vulnerability of the brain to the head spinning violently. What makes the hook punch and spinning hook kick so effective is the fact that you can knock a person out easily when you connect on the jaw and whip their head around. Part of that is impulse, part is momentum. If it were all impulse and very little else, then perhaps all I would do (all?) is fracture the jaw into multiple pieces. For other targets, this type of surface effect is the desired outcome.

Thus what I'm trying to emphasize is that the hooking techniques have more momentum, whereas the straight techniques are more like the classic engineering impulse function - except maybe in the case of the stepping lunge punch.


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 Post subject: Hook vs Straight?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 1998 5:46 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Anthony,

I would never make fun of you, here... I'll wait 'til we get together for a beer or two. Then, we can have some good nature ribbing. Image

Yes, there are round house punches in Uechi but the mechanics are different from what I consider a "true" hook punch. The uechi round house punch is more akin to a looping right/left.

david


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