sparring

[miked]

Mr. Sigman wrote:

>I met Nidans and Sandans who were simply >horrible at sparring. Later I noticed that >this is a common affliction in many of the >martial arts.


Oh, come now Mr. Sigman. Are you implying that all or the majority of Nidans and Sandans are bad at sparring. That is a very broad brush you are painting with.

A few points.

1) Sparring is not fighting. I refer you to Van Canna Sensei's Self-Defense Realities forum on this web site for more proof of this. I persnally know of Uchi stylists who have succesfully defended themselves on the street with devastating effect.

2) If you are talking about tournament sparring than I am assuming that you haven't run into the likes of the Uechi practitioners who have dominated tha All-Okinawa championships for the past couple of decades. Have you seen Rick Martin, Seiyu Shinjo, Higa-san spar?

3) I have attended many open tournaments and invariably Uechi practitioners usually win the fight due to their superior conditioning, not necessarily the bout. Many other stylists just can't handle the type of punihsment that is usually dished out by experienced Uechi practioners. That is why many open tournaments disallow leg attacks which many Uechi stylists are very adept at delivering.

IMHO, point sparring can lead to bad habits but the Okinawans that I have worked with distinguish sport kumite from budo kumite. In sport kumite the emphasis is on speed and timing while in budo kumite the emphasis is on power and destruction.

Now, were you referring to the former or the latter. Do you really want to try delivering a jump spinning back kick on an icy street in bulky clothing while it is snowing? I would hope not.

Best regards,

Mike

[Van Canna]

Looks like > despite the sorry start , this discussion is developing with a commonality of interest ; so far so good!

I will try to speak simply and present some of the vexing questions posed to me by other Uechi seniors with a shining track record of full contact championships and successful real life encounters , some of which I have witnessed first hand with devastating results :

The concept of strength , as developed through tai-chi or taiji practice , is a valid one , and I have seen karatekas from many different disciplines greatly improve their power base by complementing their training with tai-chi ! Personally , I have always espoused the concept of blending extreme/explosive power in all athletic endeavors I competed in , from soccer , track and field {shot put} , international rowing back in Europe , judo > and karate free style fighting !!

Yet , as important as great strength is to the fighting equation, the consensus is > it will always remain only one of the many component factors that make up a complete fighter !

Quite aside from the mental/emotional facets , the physical components/ attributes of a formidable fighter should encompass at least the following:

1] Strength >> 2] delivery/reaction speed >> 3] coordination >> 4] explosive /shocking delivery >> 5] power generation skills{ neck snapping power} >> 6] timing and rhythm >> 7] muscular endurance and aerobic capacity >> 8] ability to take damaging hits and keep going >>9] an effective /aggressive blocking system >> 10] a conditioned efficient delivery system >> 11] An automatic targeting system >> 12 ] sound , simple basic techniques heavily dependent on gross motor skills that will not let you down under the grip of the chemical cocktail that " carry enough power on the correct targets to incapacitate the opponent "

Over the long years and under exposure to many different systems , tough tournament play , real life encounters and ongoing specialty investigations of violent one on one street fights , some of which resulting in death of over confident martial artists , My choice remains Uechi-Ryu simply because we believe that , overall, it naturally promotes the development of all the above essential components , if practiced properly and assiduously , taking into consideration ,of course, the individual variables along with the underling physical and emotional make up of the man behind the system ! { Not all practitioners are created equal}

In Uechi-Ryu we see extreme body /legs /shins/ arms conditioning ; we develop an ability to take lots of punishment ; we have the good natural shield of some of the most effective blocking system I have seen , and we have devastating natural offensive weapons i.e., " tiger's teeth " >> sokusen > shoken etc. that other systems do not have and do not promote!

Having said that , and having listened to Evan Pantazi sensei [ our formidable , well mannered and respectful Kyusho associate ] politely explaining that gross strength is not really desirable or necessary in a real fight ; I attended one of Mr. Dillman's seminar where my skepticism was instantly cured upon seeing two spectacular light force knockouts by Pantazi -san >>using blinding speed and simple stress proof Uechi moves , one of them one handed , as simple as touching the collar bone and rolling his fist into the neck area [ think about the movement and where it is found in Uechi-Ryu ] ! The man who went down was a big strong guy who was knocked instantly senseless[ like he had been shot ] !!

Yet the discussion of Mike Sigman on taiji power is intriguing and my question is how is the system practiced and does it reconcile at all with the paradigms outlined above ! Would Taiji practice make sense as a complement to Uechi training or would it totally clash with our concepts ?

Van Canna

[Mike Sigman]

Mike D. Wrote:


Oh, come now Mr. Sigman. Are you implying that all or the majority of Nidans and
Sandans are bad at sparring. That is a very broad brush you are painting with.
**************88

Actually, I never said or meant to imply at all that "the ***majority*** of nidans and sandans are bad". You're misreading me and then building a topic for discussion out of that misread. Sorry. :^)
**********************************

A few points.

1) Sparring is not fighting. I refer you to Van Canna Sensei's Self-Defense Realities
forum on this web site for more proof of this. I persnally know of Uchi stylists who
have succesfully defended themselves on the street with devastating effect.

2) If you are talking about tournament sparring than I am assuming that you haven't
run into the likes of the Uechi practitioners who have dominated tha All-Okinawa
championships for the past couple of decades. Have you seen Rick Martin, Seiyu
Shinjo, Higa-san spar?

3) I have attended many open tournaments and invariably Uechi practitioners usually
win the fight due to their superior conditioning, not necessarily the bout. Many other
stylists just can't handle the type of punihsment that is usually dished out by
experienced Uechi practioners. That is why many open tournaments disallow leg
attacks which many Uechi stylists are very adept at delivering.

IMHO, point sparring can lead to bad habits but the Okinawans that I have worked
with distinguish sport kumite from budo kumite. In sport kumite the emphasis is on
speed and timing while in budo kumite the emphasis is on power and destruction.

Now, were you referring to the former or the latter. Do you really want to try
delivering a jump spinning back kick on an icy street in bulky clothing while it is
snowing? I would hope not.
*******************************

Sorry Mike, I take your points but it has nothing to do with what I was trying to say. Insofar as fighting not being sparring, I'm aware of it. I mentioned that so that my putdown was not too extreme... I have seen nidans and sandans whose sparring was horrible. I left unsaid the obvious; if they couldn't spar they obviously couldn't fight.

Van Canna writes:



Yet , as important as great strength is to the fighting equation, the consensus is > it
will always remain only one of the many component factors that make up a complete
fighter !
******************************

I agree.
**********************************
(snip a lot of common sense about fighting)

I attended one of Mr. Dillman's
seminar where my skepticism was instantly cured upon seeing two spectacular light
force knockouts by Pantazi -san >>using blinding speed and simple stress proof Uechi
moves , one of them one handed , as simple as touching the collar bone and rolling his
fist into the neck area [ think about the movement and where it is found in Uechi-Ryu
] ! The man who went down was a big strong guy who was knocked instantly
senseless[ like he had been shot ] !!
**********************************

Do you mean that he was hit in the carotid sinus? In which case, the impact affects body-wide vasodilation, dropping blood pressure from the brain and causing a loss of consciousness. I hope that people are aware that it's not a good long-term practice and can damage your students to demonstrate this too much.

************************************
Yet the discussion of Mike Sigman on taiji power is intriguing and my question is how is
the system practiced and does it reconcile at all with the paradigms outlined above !

***************************

I think that Taiji is subject to the same physical constraints as any art, style, or fight is constrained to. Certainly all of the above is germane.
**********************************

Would Taiji practice make sense as a complement to Uechi training or would it totally
clash with our concepts ?
********************************

Different strategies are involved in Taiji. The use of great short power from different areas of the body, throws, and qinna's are also frequent aspects of Taiji. The point is, though, that although these could certainly be used by *any* practitioner of *any* style, it takes some retraining of the body to develop this sort of power.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

You are a bit new to the kyusho business. I agree with your assessment of the ***mania surrounding the practice. Lots of it stems from 1) money, 2) who has the newest fad, and 3) how you can get more of #1 from #2 by appealing to those that want the latest "secrets". All that aside, there is modicum of substance under the hype.

Not everyone uses "Traditional Chinese Medicine" (their own terminology) to describe what is going on. I can address your specific question concerning the involvement of the carotid sinus. Some (like Bruce Miller) write that even DOUBLE carotid sinus strikes is NOT a reliable way to cause a knockout. The principles of how one would apply this are understood, but the reality is that this technique is only reliable against folks who are 40 years or older. That probably has something to do with the lack of elasticity of blood vessels with age and the subsequent ablily to send a sufficient signal to the medulla by stimulating the carotid bodies.

There ARE ways to stimulate baroreceptors and achieve a reliable knockout. Those in the aortic arch apparently create a much more dramatic pressure drop, and so are more likely to achieve the magnitude of reduced cerebral blood flow necessary to achieve the KO. This type of technique is best done with a body blow that creates a shock wave to organs that store blood (like the spleen). Miller describes some of these techniques in one of his books on light force KOs. He has a medicine/physiology background and can give a little sense of the subject for those who don't want to go the chi and meridian direction.

Hope this helps. This stuff is pretty complicated when you get into the details.

Bill

[Evan Pantazi]

Mr. Sigmund,

In reply to your comment as to hitting the Carotid Sinus and dropping the mans blood pressure...It did look as if pressure was forced into the Carotid but indeed it wasn't as I respect people too much, (especially someone who offers themselves to help prove or teach an idea), to ever strike anyone there just for show! It was a pull on ST-11 on the collar bone then onto ST-5 on the jaw. The Ko occured due to a Yin / Yang energy disruption, (first forcing the energy down and then quickly up), (or in J. D. terms I facilitaded the Cutaneous Cervical Nerve and the Buccal Nerve). The other KO mentioned was on the foot and ribs, both techniques can also be found in Tai Chi postures. By the way this is the Art of Tai Chi's root and origin, a fact illuded to by Dillman Sensei constantly.

Uechi and Tai Chi have the same goals and base as do all the Arts, it is the consistant attention to the structure of movement that will enable the individual to use the laws of nature in the most efficient and precise manner.

Evan Pantazi