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I emailed Sigman yesterday morning and suggested that he catch up on your thread. He's in the middle of something businesswise but I think he's in touch with your Glasheen. I'll make a couple of comments and then I'll get out, although I admit that it is pretty interesting to read how people on this list post. Surreal.
First of all Sigman explained the difficulty that all of us have run into in trying to explain this stuff. Its not that it can't be written down its just that the words sound like something normally encountered and that's what creates the problems.
The main problem you got on this list is that your tolerant of rude behavior by your own members yet you set different standards for other people. Your own insults are just good humor and rough joking that you think everyone should tolerate. Other peoples replies in kind are insults too strong to be tolerated. I don't know anybody skilled that will tolerate that sort of BS. What you seem to expect is that everyone bow down and do your bidding. Go out on some of the public lists like Sigman suggests and see how long that stuff is tolerated.
If you want to ask Sigman a specific question you might try it in private email. The way I see it is that you don't have any idea what he's talking about so you don't have much of a common dialogue and you assume it's his misperception. ;>)
I'll give it a couple of shots but I'm not an expert so you'll have to take it to Sigman or one of the big dogs on neijia to get clearer explanations.
Some of the questions:
**Before we were so rudely interrupted I was asking what differentiates an internal
system from an external system.**
External is considered to use 'normal' strength. Internal manipulates structural alignments so that the final force is in your fist or shoulder or elbow or leg but it would take a force diagram to show you what goes on in the internal arts. If I remember right, Sigman invited people to go look. I did once and I went to one of his workshops. Before that all my ideas of what he was talking about were way off. Now what he says makes sense and what is written the classical Hsing-I , PaKua, etc. texts makes sense too. I thought I knew it before but I didn't.
**Your point regarding mind-set is well-taken. I refer you back to Van Cann's forum for
discussion of this topic.**
The movement of the force endpoints is done with the mind and sometimes very small adjustments. I wouldn't have believed it and it wouldn't have made sense until I saw it and could do it. It doesn't break the laws of physics. It's just unusual and something most people have never seen before. Remember in the early days of karate it was something pretty unusual and 'magick' to see someone break a brick?
**The connection betweeen min-dbody sounds intriguing but my problem is that this
verbiage is still vague and doesn't help me to understand just what the difference is
between Internal and External arts.**
It's not what people are guessin on this list. It's what I said above but a lot more sophisticated and extensive.
**To Mr. Askteter:
I am a Finance manager. In the business world we seek to eliminate what is generally
referred to as "non- value added activities". These are activities which add to the
cost of producing and distributing a product or a service but which don't add any
value to the form, function, fit or purpose of the product or service being sold. An
example would be movement of raw materials from one site to another site, if in fact,
the raw material should have been stored at the point at which it is consumed. The
movement would add additional cost to the production of the item but no real value.
i would argue that your post was a non-valued added item. Instead of addressing any
of the substantive issues in this thread you chose to spit invective and ridicule. Is
that how you treat other martial artists in person? If so, then you may have learned
technique in your 23 years but you certainly have not internalized the martial
principles which we all aspire to.**
Why? Your basically saying that my post was an ##### post and your saying it with some vague idea that its constructive to point it out. My post was the same way, bud. And again your complaining about 'outsiders' invective and ridicule disregarding your own. And then you moralise. Go back and read some of the posts from this group. As for how I treat other martial artists in person it's a good question. Ask around.
And notice how I spell my name too.
**I had another conversation with my erudite and articulate martial arts comprade and
he remnded me that acceleration is a derivative of velocity, time and distance. The
formula is as follows:
Where d is distance, v is velocity, a is acceleration, t is time.
For constant acceleration
d = d0 + vt + .5at^2
v = v0 + at
v^2 = 2ad
Ok, I'll admit that my calculus days are long behind me so the most I can get out of
this equation is that an increase in velocity, a shortening of distance or a shortening
of time will increase the generation of power.
The time I am referring to is the amount of time a fist or foot is in contact with a
target. It appears to me that increasing velocity over a short distance with
momentary contact with the target will generate a whole lot of force.
Am I right about this?**
That's Impulse. Your right. There's more to power than a mass being accelerated. Your pointing to one important factor. There are a couple of other factors. FORCEtotal = F1 + F2……+Fn so your questions are not just something to gets a simple answer. What you put into your dominant factors in the equation is what the internal-external equation is about. This is the sort of thing that's been hashed out on neijia a number of times but you still have to see the basics before you get a start.
Now let us turn our attention to deflection of energy. From your post I gathered that
there are four ways to neutrlaize an opponent's power.
** 1: Avoid
2: Deflect
3. Misdirect
3: Block it "dead in its tracks"
Does this sound right?
If so, then I would argue that any and all systems have devloped a certain emphasis
on some of these options to neutralize power. So what distinguishes an internal
system's emphasis from an external system's emphasis?**
All of that's just technique and strategy within a particular martial art. The basic power of Hsing-I is the same as the basic power of Tai Chi but the techniques and strategies are different. In other words that part of the discussion has nothing to do with internal and external.
**To Lori:
Rest asssured that your honour yet remains unsullied by these deprecations and
innuendos.**
Heh. She took the first shot right? And you guys never said a word then. She's supposed to be a martial artist right? What is this crap about her "honour yet remains unsullied". That's an insult if shes really a martial artist. Is she big enough to handle herself or what? My girlfriend would clock you if you patronized her that way.
***********************************************
** Hi Mike - I think Rick and I were attempting to address your question. The mind set is
an important component of "internal" arts. As mind set is an important component of
"external" styles also, I would invite you to entertain the possibility that the distinction
is artificial. Henning makes a damn good case for that possibility using copious
historical reference material.**
I had to ask around who Henning was. Terry Chan has a historic aricle on his webpage by Henning. Other than providing historic stuff, who is Henning? Do you know if someone is good before you quote him? Do you know what his rep is in the Chinese martial arts community? Same with Kumar Frantzis. Frantzis may know some stuff but how much is unsure and he lies like a rug about his background so whose to know? Take information with a grain of salt before you parrot it out to your pals as expert advice.
In terms of 'mind' your totally missing the point. Get Sigman to show you. Its really interesting.
**Ultimately the synthesis of mind ("yi"), muscular power ("li") and intrinsic energy ("qi")
must be present for any martial artist or champion athlete. I think of qi as the
neurological raw material from which conditioned response patterns are forged in the
furnace of repetitive focused training. **
Do you understand that? Sigman or one of the other big dogs on neijia can show you what it means pretty quick. And your thinking about qi is completely wrong. In the way your using it, its meant to apply to the manipulated force endpoints I was talking about.
**I've heard it said that to know the house of Chen one must quake. This refers to the
uncontrolled shaking of the extremities as one stands in low postures for long periods
of time in an "internal" style. **
Jesus. Quake means more like shake. The Chen-style (what Sigman and some of the others do) uses enormous "shaking power" which is commonly called fajing. See how distortions creep in? ;>)
**In a traditional Hung Gar school guess what the first
order of business is for the first year or so...you got it - stand in low ma bu (horse
stance.) You tell me, what's internal and what's external? **
You tell me. Whats so interesting is how many people from the outside go by what they know and insist they're the same as something they don't know much about. Incredibubble. ;>)
** I think (from what I've seen - not the last word in anything) that if you took an
advanced practitioner of one of the Taoist internal traditions, a Wing Chun fighter, a
Uechika, a practitioner of Silat, etc, etc. and placed them in real combative situations
not sport application, no visible denotation of their style - you would have a hard time
telling who trained what.**
I think your wrong **IF** the people really knew those arts the way they were supposed to be. A good example is how many American karate, kempo, shaolin, etc., fighters all look exactly the same in the way they fight when they get into a ring. If they don't look different it's a good discussion whether they are really doing and training anything other than typical punch-kick, eh?
I gotta run. You guys want a level conversation from someone who really knows this stuff, try and get it from Sigman. Ridicule him and you get nothing you want. Maybe something you don't want. But everybody makes their own choices.
Bill
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The idea still being to unbalance and in this case throw the opponent (and then a guy with some actual judo experience came in one day ... and well, we got to practice breakfalls alot).