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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 1999 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
I am not sure if Uechi-Ryu does the Pinan (heian, pinyan, piyan, .... so many names) katas or not. Hopefully somebody knows the answer to this.

Our head instructor and I were talking about Pinan 3, and we came to the conclusion that neither one of us knows what the final two movements are supposed to represent from a technical perspective.

The final two movements are an side elbow strike with the right (facing north) to the front, retracting hand is open at the waist. Followed by a leap to the east (still facing north) and an side elbow strike with the left to the front (still facing north), again the retracted hand is open.

In particular we are wondering why the retracting hand is open. The only thing we can think of is this is supposed to be a grab & pull to bring the opponent close in for the elbow.

Any help would be appreciated.

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 1999 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 25, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 15
Jason,

I trained in Kyokushin karate for my first decade or so in budo. Since 1982, however, I have trained in a Wado-based style/school. Over the years, I've looked at, investigated, played with, and just plainly been exposed to various ashi- and tai-sabaki for the ending of Pinan Sandan.

Examples of ashi-sabaki: Turn: 180 degrees into either shiko dachi, kiba dachi, or neko ashi dachi. Shift right: 1. leap to the right by executing a left-right action with the legs (jumping over something on your right); 2. slide the left foot to the right foot, then step out with the right foot into kiba/shiko dachi; 3. do a step-slide (right-left) step, yori ashi, to the right; 4. Step right with right leg and pull left leg into neko ashi dachi (mirroring previous neko ashi dachi).

Examples of tai-sabaki: 1. stay erect in kiba/shiko dachi, executing punch over the shoulder to opponent's face, while smashing elbow backwards on same side; 2. same stance and posture, but this time instead of punching over the shoulder, the "front" elbow pins your opponent's arm on your chest, while the same elbow as before executes a smash to the back; 3. from the neko ashi dachi, bump/check with the butt/hip back into the opponent, turn the body slightly sideways, and execute the above punch/elbow smash to the back combination.

I have always thought of this sequence of moves to contain bunkai to an assault/grab from behind. Butt/hip checks, elbow smashes to the back, punch to the back, shoulder throws, hip throws, etc., can all be applications to the whole set of movements from the turn on.

As to your question regarding the open hand. I don't recall learning it that way when I learned it in Kyokushinkai. I'll check my '60s copies of "This is Karate" and "What is Karate."

Neverthless, you raise a very interesting point, though. Many historians have written that Itosu Ankoh sensei (who designed the Pinan series), was asked to produce smaller, simpler, and safer kata, to help popularize karate and introduce it to school-age childern. In doing this, it is said/written that he eliminated many of the more dangerous open-hand techniques, replacing them with punches, etc.

Please continue searching, and I would be very interested to know what else you find out.

John


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 1999 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
To be honest, I didn't learn it that way when I studied Kyokushin either (we did it with closed hand). I moved recently and had to find a new school (no Kyokushin schools present), and the way the instructor does it here is different, which is what brought up the conversation in the first place. Image

We thought about it as a elbow to the rear, but it wouldn't explain the "open hand" aspect. Of course, it is possible that the "true" way is not to have an open hand, which would explain everything ... and would make me endlessly happy since I could then poke fun at our head instructor.

Thanks for the reply, John.

Anybody else here do it, or seen this kata done with an open hand in the last two movements?

Osu!
Jason

P.s. - I still train Kyokushinkai. School and style is irrelevent.


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 1999 8:20 pm 
If you see the earlier versions, for example, the matsubayashi ryu, which is done in a nekoashodachi, the final moves of Pinan 3 look very much like a hip throw.

Come to think of it, we should ask Anthony's dad.

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 1999 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
I believe that the form you are talking about has that move interpreted many different ways.

I've been told that it is a shoulder throw, a hip throw, an avoidance of a sweep to an elbow smash, and others. My own twist on it is to either use it as breaking someone's neck, or manhandling someone to the ground.

There is a book called "Karate Kata and Application". It may be out of print, and the author escapes me, but it has these Okinawan/Korean/Japanese forms in them, along with suggested applications. The applications all have a classical bent to them, but they are bunkai none the less.

If you can't think of how it's SUPPOSED to be as an application, maybe it's time to come up with your own bunkai.

I can ask one of my teachers what they think the move is supposed to actually be.
But I'm sure if you ask ten different stylists, you'll get ten different answers.

Hope this helps

Cecil

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Email: creativebrother@yahoo.com
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net


[This message has been edited by Cecil (edited 02-10-99).]


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 1999 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2424
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Sensei Oyama's book "Mastering Karate" a 1978 reprint of what is Karate shows "Pinan II, Pinan III, Pinan IV, Yantsu, Pinan V and Saiha"

The fist appears to be closed.

The written description of the last steps:

"20. Slide your left foot in to your leftand then one step right to assume a straddle stance.
21.In the same stance aim a left elbow strike straight behind you, and as you strike overyour left shouldrer with a right forefist, pivot on your right foot, and revolve your body 180 degrees to the left.
22. Keeping your hands in the same position, leap to the right on both feet, at the instant you land, execute a left elbow strike.
23. Bring your right foot in toward your left foot till you are in a stable stance. Cross your arms in front of you, and bring them to your sides."

I'm afraid the illustrations are not too helpful here.

Uechi/Shohei does not practice these forms.

The lines are just quotes from the book, but maybe they will be helpful.

JOHN T



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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 1:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
May I offer a suggestion that it is not the opponent that is in back of you, but rather that you are in back of your opponent.

Non Kyusho first...the elbow could be used as a choke from the rear with the fist or palm into the kidney to strike or push placing stress on the vertibrae and securing the choke more.

Or striking the GB 25 up and into the kidney with palm or punch with the fist on the elbowing arm striking ST 5 (Side of jaw), ST 9 (Front of Sternocladeidoid Muscle)or LI 18 (side of the same muscle) a possible Knockout.

Evan Pantazi


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 3:08 am 
Jason,

One of the reasons that I came into the forum evening is because I found it interesting that the Pinan forms are spread across several seemingly disparate martial arts systems. When I noticed that both Wado-ryu and Tang Soo Do them I thought it was just a fluke.

Allen


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web: http://www.uechi-ryu.org email: <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A>


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 4:31 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
While I was driving home another thought came to me for a Kyuso application. this is the fisted version....the clenched fist is pulling an opponents wrist to the side activating the H 6 (Ulna Nerve) and Lung 8 Radial Nerve) points (setting up the Triple Warmer (Medial Nerve) meridian) For a follow up punch behind the jaw on Triple Warmer 17 (Seventh Cranial Nerve plexus) for the KO.

This Kata breakdown stuff is my candy in the Arts and I'll probably have more by morning.

Oh wait, it could also be an Arm break, again with the aforementioned wrist points grabbed the forearm of the Kata could be attacking TW 11 (Golgi Tendon Receptor) for the dislocation of the elbow joint. (didn't even make the morning).

Evan Panatzi


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 10, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1
Location: Hemet,Ca,USA
In Matsubayashi Ryu the final two moves in Pinan Sandan are done on a 45 degree from main line of the Kata. Bunkai is to break a grab from behind and is a cross body over the shoulder punch and ushiro hiji ate (rear elbow strike) from nekoashi dachi. Retracting hand is closed fist. No throws here.


Sorry, didn't mean to delete my name from here.
Anthony Licalzi Sr.
Matsubayashi ryu


Pine Tree


[This message has been edited by Pine Tree (edited 02-11-99).]


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
Allen wrote:

"One of the reasons that I came into the forum evening is because I found it interesting that the Pinan forms are spread across several seemingly disparate martial arts systems. When I noticed that both Wado-ryu and Tang Soo Do them I thought it was just a fluke. "

My man, it isn't a fluke. It just proves that a lot of martial arts have more in common than they care to admit. It's to the point where I'm not even impressed when people claim multiple black belts in supposedly different systems now that I know that a lot of stuff has been borrowed from Okinawan karate, which was borrowed from the Chinese, and so on.

I'm impressed by someone blending a hard style with a soft style, or a standing style with a ground oriented one.

------------------
Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2424
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
As you all have probably guessed, I have a lot of martial arts books collected over 25 years hanging about. Why? It's my kind of fun.

Had another instructor (well former) say why do you still study form? (he doesn't believe in its utility. At base, so as not to get his back up too much, my ansewr was "I enjoy it".


JOHN T

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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 10:36 pm 
Hello Cecil,

Some related styles have similar forms which is understandable. Major TKD groups have completely different forms which is also understantable.

What I found difficult to understand, thereby threw out the word 'fluke' is that a Korean martial art and a Japanese style, share a same group of forms. And what I can remember that in addition to the names being the same, those forms Pinan I through I think Pinan VII at least were at least almost the same. Actually I thought they were pretty neat kata.

This forum teased my curiosity leading me to play telephone tag - still - with a former TSD master to bounce a few questions off him about the Pinans.

Allen



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web: http://www.uechi-ryu.org email: <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A>


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 5:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 181
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Jason, et al.:

As I understand the history of the Pinans, they were created near the turn of the century by Itosu, for use in the Okinawan school system. Funakoshi used them, and renamed them the Heians. He also changed the order of instruction, finding Pinan Shodan too difficult for his students, he switched Pinan Shodan and Nidan. When TKD was founded in 1954, the founders looked for a source book for developing TKD forms. They apparently turned to Funakoshi's text. (As did the founder of Tang Soo Do.)

I find the history of the Pinans facinating, because we can see the variations and interpretations that have been given the katas in the span of less than one hundred years. For those who think forms remain static, the Pinans offer a testament to evolution.

For those of us in Uechi, the story of the Pinans should serve as an example of what we can expect the kata to look like a hundred years from now.

For more on the history of the Pinans, and other Okinawan forms, the concise "Karate-Do, History and Philoshpy" by Takao Nakaya is helpful. "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" by Nagamine is also quite helpful.

As to how the kata is applied, I doubt that Itosu had only one application in mind. The difficulty with bunkai, is that people begin believing a movement has only one application. If one subscribes to the kata theory that everything forward is something backward, everything backward is something forward, every strike is a block, every block is a strike, to be hard you must be soft, and to be soft you must be hard, then not only can you go crazy, but you can also have a really good time with kata.

Peace.
Robb in Sacramento


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 Post subject: Kata Question (Pinan 3)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 9:55 am 
Hello Rob,

The original TKD forms are very Shotokanish. It is little wonder because the father of TKD earned a Shotokan blackbelt, level of which depends upon the source, while being in a Japanese labor camp in Manchuria prior to WWII. From what I have seen of the Korean styles, they did NOT follow through with any bunkai, a true loss to theit art.

Allen



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web: http://www.uechi-ryu.org email: <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A>


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