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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Kranj, Slovenia
Gentlemen,

The new day is born and my little magic mug has calmed down. I have decided that there are already too many BOMBS out there and a good word or two might do the work, provided they are carefully listen to (and bombs usually do not do any good work). So a lot of contents of my magic cup has been put aside but I warn you do not fool yourself than I am not overloaded with weapons.

First of all I do sincerely apologize to all those who felt offended by my strong language and the way I have treated certain individuals on this forum (I am not taking anything back as they deserved every single word of it, and there are a couple of them more, who deserve even stronger punishment, and they would quickly discover the exact location of their very ears, to start listening again for a change and...ah, stop) but there come times when some stronger means of awakening are needed to draw the necessary attention because the disease in some of these forums is acute.

Mr.Mattson has drawn attention to The Open Letter to Karate Community by Mr.Morris and after initial few posts I have become appaled by the fact that none of you were able to produce any response that would make sense. The substance of Mr.Moriss Letter has not been touched, although he is vividly describing problems, that are so much present in this martial art called Karate and the vast difference in understanding of WHAT Karate is and its values, how Karate is presented to the public, what is the difference between Karate-DO and Karate-jutsu or whatever different names do we use to describe this discipline of mind and body during different periods of history.

My initial post was a provocative one, as there were posts like "who is this guy?" some were quick to call him just another dude, etc. This shows your great lack of knowledge (or gaining information) as Mr.Morris IS NOT JUST ANOTHER DUDE and it is of great concern to all of us, who have devoted far less effort, time, and shared far less experience and challenges than he has, THAT he has come to the conclusions he has presented in his letter and WHY do they SEEM to proclaim Karate as totaly useless and ineffective fighting arts practice. To those that believe in karate efficiency his words are of course like a spit in the face. But is it really so?

I intended to go step by step, not to disclose all my weapons at once as I am a warrior and due to my subsequent involvement into the topic "All those applications.." I have been cut in the middle (to some it may appear like I have acted as Mr.Morris right-hand assistant) but I have not said my final word and due to the fact that I consider THIS as a topic of prime importance (and not the garbage that is discussed in such a large quantities on this forums, my God I feel the fever again) I shall elaborate more when my limited time of course permits that. In the meantime Mr.Mattson has already published his closing comments under "Barrage of pebbles", which I feel are valid, but as I said, it would be a pity if such a valuable discussion would end in such a short time and participants would again turn to subjects like "what is the connection between hojo undo tenshin steps and winning All Okinawa Tournament, etc., etc." the answers of such stupid questions I generously leave to those experts that deal with deadly applications.

I have read somewhere: "If you act like a Fool, you are nothing but a Fool." Now English is my 3rd language. But is it I who should translate this statement to you? If you do foolish practises in your Karate than your Karate is nothing but a Garbage can. And that is exactly what Mr.Morris is saying. And I am so more worried that caliber like Dr.X get insulted when I have used term "kindergarten karate", because the only one WHO should realy be insulted, should be those from the Kids Forum, because I have insulted them (and do apologize, provided they do what Kids should do). And it would be much healthier, if some forum owners would return to this healty practices, instead of preaching junk karate. I have no doubt that there are some sober people out there but probably they do not wish to enter this discussions for the very same reasons I did not - but WHO is going to STOP this blazing wagon?

Now, I shall go back to the subject of "All those applications.." which is essentially the same as Mr.Morris deals with...misunderstanding of the purpose that each and every Karate exercise serve. I have menthioned this statement before BUT it appears to me that you people are overlooking easily important basic facts in your frenzy search of "How to quickly terminate your friends life or at least send him asleep with a touch on the chin". LIFE MY FRIENDS IS A VALUABLE ASSET. And I warn you not to play to much with it. You may lose it too quickly. Simple. Period.

In my opening post "All those applications..." I have tried to guide you to draw the essential conclusions to WHAT PURPOSE EACH AND EVERY KARATE EXERCISE SERVE but you have all FAILED (not counting Gary and from his short comment again FALSE, most of you draw WRONG conclusions that I merely advocate sport Karate). May I politely ask you, that for a change, you start using your grey cells instead of all your preconcieved thoughts and jumping conclusions.

I warn you to start reading carefully each and every word as otherwise I shall cease to loose my valuable time. Read my opening post again and do you find any REAL weak point? I have deliberately left one and again NOBODY has been able to RESPOND properly. Well?

Nobody commented on my line: " In Karate there is absolutely NO ELIMINATION process of this garbage-ineffective techniques..." In fact it is a sad fact that this is so often TRUE, but in traditional Karate-Do there is an elimination process of this garbage-ineffective techniques and IT IS CALLED A GOOD SENSEI. And judging from your responses I am concerned there is a shortage of such individuals on this forums (no offence, but please start proving the opposite with comments that make common sense).

I knew my Dear friend Bill would be among first to respond and I awaited his reply. For this my friends we call in Jiyu kumite: "to offer an opening....so we can see what fighting equipment the other guy posses, what his reactions are, what is his nature and what kind of treatment he deserves (if he is cool, we shall save him, if he acts stupidly, we shall punish him a bit more to teach him some lesson). I know this may be a bit hard to understand for those who do not go beyond Kyu and Dan Kumite level (and Dear Bill, it is not necessary to polish Dan Kumite for 10 years like preaching some mantra and expect to receive a blessing at the end (possibly in the form of a bird **** falling from the sky) and on the contrary I can also argument its values but for the purposes that it was designed; but this it is for you to discover).

Due to the fact that Bill Sensei is one of the most productive forumers and offers final advices to many students, I was very disapointed that he opened himself as long and as wide he is, offering on sale his all 365 vulnerable Kyusho points (one more or less does not matter). I could pick anyone but let's not spend our time in vain and play the most important one. The one that almost COST my another friend Clarence his precious life.

Unfortunately Bill Sensei, you have made an immediate escape to street fighting, which really pissed me off (sorry). DO YOU REALLY EXPECT YOUR STUDENTS TO PERFORM EVERYTHING (no rules) UNDER ANY TOTALY UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES. My godness, than I presume your students are Supermen and Spiderwomen (and even those sometimes break their neck by shere accident). Or you have set yourself an impossible task of creating Supermen and Spiderwomen from your students as they are the only one that survive on the streets (of movies).

When I have further pinned you down with my little questionaire, you again would like to change rules all the time. I guess when you make your scientific research you also switch samples all the times and than out of that TOTALY UNKNOWN MIXTURE you draw some SOUND conclusions.

YOU have MISUNDERSTOOD my friend, I am NOT evaluating fighting methods based on what works in sport karate. I said: When I TEACH sport karate I do evaluate sport karate fighting techniques on basis of KNOWN SAMPLES (my students and their opponents) and KNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES (different level tournaments) and I CAN draw SOUND conclusions out of that if my teaching methods are bringing any success or not.

WHEN I teach traditional Karate-DO, I also evaluate my students progress according to the standards that are set for this programme. But I NEVER teach my students STREET survival, because to my understanding this is impossible. Period.

Which DOES NOT mean there is no answer for such situations to be met BUT I like Mr.Morris shall not give those answers so easily away. At least not to you, unless you all immediately confirm in WRITTING that you are COMMUNISTS by heart, ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha (while I was living in that dark age everything was for free for everybody).

As far as I know street fighting never was part of Karate-DO and as far as I can recall, I have never seen ANY Uechi Instructor on Okinawa teaching street fighting.

BUT obviously you do and YOU HAVE NEVER answered me HOW do YOU EVALUATE your teaching of your students for street survival. You have offered SUPERSTITION or GOOD LUCK. I know many people who play LUCKY NUMBERS and guess what - they are every single week convinced they will get BINGO. How do you include Clarence in those two samples of yours? Are you going to continue to implanting belief in your students they can win BINGO on the street or not? This is a TRUE question.

Yes I HAVE BEEN A BIT TRICKY with you, but can't you see (come to a sober conclusion) that the opponent out there in the street might also be tricky and above all, more unpredictive as the end of my postings were at the very first beginning. My favorite, Mr.Van is spending in vain his vivid descriptions of this "predators" AND HOW MANY MORE TIMES YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD, predators will not come to you in Sanchin stance or with some of those little grabs you do against your girl students (you fear to be more realistic because she may conclude, you Bill might be a secret weird molester yourself, if trying to shot her with some adrenaline by grabbing her as a real rapist would do, not one of squeaky boys from next street, who wetted his pants when your girl reacted like any girl WITHOUT any martial art training would - God bless her lucky angel).

I shall not list my own street survival adventures and competition results to save readers for already too long post. But I shall describe one of those MUMBO-JUMBO exercises one American Uechi Instructor was proudly presenting at the camp in Germany. We were supposed to practice street survival technique against attacker from behind. So we were instructed to stand with our back against the opponent and he would attack with a seiken zuki in Sanchin stance directed to our back(spine). Because at that time we did not posses 7th sense to feel when the attack would come and The Instructor forgot to bring surgical instruments to replant our eyes to the back of our heads, the attacker was advised to signal his deadly zuki with a not so-loud kiai. Upon hearing that kiai, we were instructed to perform a correct Sanchin turn, do a proper wa uke and respond with seiken zuki to his head. After a couple of repetitions The Instructor felt that we are ready for full power attacks, so we would get more adrenaline. Because I learned some manners, I have saved my comments but decided to give him hidden awakening lesson. When it was my turn to survive, I stood still as a tree and the Instructor launched his full power zuki...I did not move in spite of his fierce kiai...and his full power blow landed in my back right on the spine... NOW, DO YOU THINK THE POOR GUY WAS AWAKENED. He just stood there in bewilderment, not knowing exactly was he a JACK-POT winner or he just landed on Mars. When I kindly asked him to reverse our roles, he promptly wetted his pants as if I suddenly turned into Igor - the Lord Dracula's right-hand assistant. But I was still the Igor nice guy and all he would get would be a gentle twist of his ear while we would walk out of gym. This was my last attempt to try to awaken street-survival specialists because it is mission impossible (please, do not ask me to explain, what was the point of my lesson).

I know this poor guy was not the best USA produced as you have now latest hit Peyton Quinn. And his is going to prepare you better than anyone until now. But please ask yourself and Mr.Quinn!!! Does Peyton Quinn give you money back guarantee when you finish with a knife in your back because until this unfortunate incident, you have completed just class no.3, which covered one to one unarmed assault and one to five with a knife in your back was a lesson no. 5.786.473.

And forget about Special Forces. They have learned their lesson better. Your three man kidnapped by the Serbs did not offer unnecessary resistance (and still have the chance to return to their families) as otherwise they would not finish with those couple of bumps on their faces, but could quite likely be submitted to one of those Serb special treatments, they have learned in past centuries from invading Ottomans, which is: batter thick wooden stick through the overbrave guy's backhole up to his throat in such a precise way, that none of the internal organs are hurt, and than already poor guy may contemplate for a week or so on koan: "What is the TRUE nature of a thick wooden stick?"

So, my dear friend Bill. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE CALLED A WIMP. I only beg you to take my advice because with the little help of the sober mind you can be far better Karate-ka and I would be very, very sorry to loose you. DO NOT FEED your head and your students heads with SUPERSTITION, because I guess you love them and take care of them AND YOU DO NOT WANT THEM TO LOSE THEIR LIFE IN SUCH A STUPID WAY.

And I ask you dear forumers, WHERE is your UECHI-RYU heading? Yesterday you were satisfied to finally break bats with your shins, so tomorrow you might start hanging rocks onto your testicles (like some Chinese "masters" do), today you stick your fingers into Kyusho points and knock-out your friends and day after tomorrow you might "jump onto each other and rip open your juggler veins with snarling teeth" (like Anthony Licalzi's favorites AirBourne Rangers).

WHAT about RETURNING to Karate-DO? May I suggest a nice story which step by step illustrates this word-battle. Funakoshi Gichin: My Way of Life, see page 21, story NO WEAPONS (An Important Lesson).
And than return to practise, practise, practise to learn LESSON number 1: "REALIZE OUR OWN LIMITATIONS (c)PI" or as other sober minds have put it more figuratively: "We all, I the fierce Igor, you Bill, Mattson Sensei, my dear Clarence Wilder, only due to the lack of this very same realization, shot three times by ordinary jerk - ARE JUST A PAIN IN THE ASS OF A TIGER".

Sincerely,
igor


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 1999 7:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 6
Dear Mr. Igor Prasnikar,

Wow! I think I must have missed much of what led up to your post, as, I've stated before, I am not a frequent visitor here (but, I must admit, I'm becoming more intrigued).

I'm not sure I get your point about it being impossible to teach "street survival" techniques, when later you refer to broaching the subject with students. Also, I admit I'm unclear as to your points of tournament competition versus ???

Clearly, karate is not magic. There is no hocus-pocus, and, in my opinion, "external" versus "internal" debates, while I can appreciate the concept, are beyond me.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that I practice some techniques that I wouldn't use in a true confrontation. However, I may use parts of it. I don't believe there are "secrets" in our system (other than the healing arts which are not commonly taught anymore, or, should I say, information that has not been relinquished to me). We are given the gross movements. It is up to teachers, and the individual students, to break it down and look for PRACTICAL applications.

One would hope that we could impart to students an "automatic response" to a violent confrontation. Only those who have vast experience in violent confrontation outside of a controlled environment can possibly know what it is like. Adrenaline surges, timing is off, depth perception is affected. All we can do is train in such a way that we would hope we could react effectively. That is the edge. Confrontations on the street will always be unpredictable.

In a true confrontation, we would hope we retain the CONCEPT of Sanchin. Obviously, we are not going to get in a classic position. But would we attempt to be centered? Would we attempt to strike with speed, strength and focus? I would hope so.

What we have going for us is a system that has a history behind it. We know that some techniques would not be appropriate in certain given situations. For example, blocking a leg with the arm is ridiculous unless your only intention is redirecting an opponent. Take a look at the physics of it. Large mass striking a smaller mass.

Our responsibility, then, would be to evaluate what we are doing and find out what works. This does not mean we disregard techniques, only that we evaluate them in such a way as to render sense out of them.

A good friend of mine from another system puts it well: Hit the center of mass---HARD!
If it doesn't work in bad footing, in the dark and rain, don't do it!

We can toss around "what ifs" and have fun doing it, but the true test is effectiveness.

Keep in mind the the entire sytem has good, valid applications if one spends time looking for them. Remember (and again, in my opinion), we have the gross movements, it is up to each individual and their teachers to look within these "large movements" and find the subtleties that work.

The old saying "All is in Sanchin" is true. Enough work on Sanchin, the rest is just dressing.

Steve


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 1999 8:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Kranj, Slovenia
Dear gentleman Steven Goss,

I have already thanked you once before although I did not have the privilege to know you personally. I have felt that you have spoken soundly, more than all the others before.

I thank you very much for this reply as you have obviously no fear against THE PAPER TIGER.

You see, there is a sad case, that my little VIRTUAL DEMONSTRATION of HOW different REALLY is OUT THERE in REALITY, when you are completely on your OWN and no friends, no cops, no one to help. Just you and THE PREDATOR.

And than it takes guts to say: JESUS and JUMP on the assailant with the tiger you have INSIDE yourself as without THAT all the techniques you were so diligently practising for so many years ARE IN VAIN.

And TODAY I AM VERY SORRY.
I came to my office at the Airport to do my regular job. And what do I find. That I have been so UTTERLY MISUNDERSTOOD that this comes as a science fiction.

My DEAR friend Bill somehow thought that IT IS I IGOR who is coming to shot him or bomb him and he is turning the posts to the FBI.

My dear forumers,

Take a deep breath and calm down.
I live thousands of miles away on the other side of the ocean, called Atlantic Ocean.
I NEVER HAD ANY INTENTION TO HARM ANYBODY
and especially not My friend BILL.

I am not able to demonstrate you in LIVE what a VAST difference is between WHAT you TALK ABOUT street survival and WHAT IS street survival.

And I did not have any other tools than THIS WORDS OF MINE to try to demonstrate you this VAST difference.

In your post you speak about many things. I hope YOU are able to DEMONSTRATE also at least one or two of them.

Take my good advice. Do NOT pack into your head too many ideas and different concepts as this will just take you further and further away from the ESSENTIAL.


AND finnaly this is A PROOF how unsuitable media words are for teaching Karate, because everyone jumps his conclusions and than divert from the very essential.

HAVE A GOOD CHARACTER AND SINCERE ATTITUDE
towards your fellow Karate-ka.

With deepest respect
igor

PS
I recommend all the others to again take a deep breath and start reading from ma first post "All those applications..", use your head if that post was written by RAVING MANIAC or was impolite in any respect
and than slowly continue to go through each and every post and see how I have issued prompt warnings as A TRUE GENTLEMAN and how this warnings were neglected and when all arguments were lost....silence....and I was shouting to BILL to fight back with all his intelectual weapons he posses...and the thread was just closed and turned to FBI.

Because even a warrior is a human being (very important) I Igor, proudly admitt to all MUMBO-JUMBO UFC DEATH FIGHTERS of the USA that I had to leave my office for ten minutes and hide myself in a toilet (not to upset customers I have to serve), where I have cried like a CHILD, because of the way Karate-DO is going.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 1999 3:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Igor

Misunderstanding is human. We are friends.

-- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Kranj, Slovenia
I am good citizen too, Bill.
You know, sometimes I have got a strange feeling, that some people on these forums thought that I was some kind of a raving maniac.
But I assure you..I am basically a good guy.
I do not bite. I have a bit of a humour,too
at least I think so, because people often laugh with me.

You know what? I think Mr.Mattson should grant us both a THREAD of the DAY AWARD.
(if just all those applications would come back..)

Now, I am all Speedy Gonzales..

By until next time.

Your friend Igor


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 1999 5:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Kranj, Slovenia
Hi Bill,

Oups,just found this one..it's kind of difficult to jump forward and backword to locate you on this forums.

Here is my hand too. ((((shake)))(shake)

Igor (very human)
have a nice daughter

PS
How old are your kids, by the way?


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 1999 5:08 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Igor

My boys are two unique individuals. They are different from me - not as ugly. Good!

-- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 1999 5:26 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Kranj, Slovenia
Come on Bill,

You are a great guy. And I proudly admitt, I had MY BEST TIME IN THE WORLD when you were my generous host in Charlottesville in 1980.

You had a wonderfull class in those days and
I have truly enjoyed your work-outs.

And all those parties....I remember it was first time in my life that I have been offered and tried...(khm,khm,)...and afterwards my Sanchin was like a 400 pound stoned..oups..typing mistake(how the hell do you go back, something wrong with this old typewriter of mine)..aha..gotcha..STONE.
Yeah,my girl is 13 years old, delicate years.
And you know what?
She openly proclaims that Karate is BUL****. In sipte of my elaborations and convincing arguments, she hold opinion of HER OWN and that is WHY, I am so DAMN proud of her. And in the hidden corner of my heart, I must admitt that she has some pretty HEAVY ARGUMENTS FOR THAT STATEMENT. JIZZZ...Isn't it nice we can love each other in spite of those HEAVY arguments. I think it is wonderfull.

What do YOU think Bill?

Yours sincerely,
Igor


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 1999 5:52 am 
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Igor

Ahhh, references to my"Wild Bill" past. That was not me, Igor, that was an evil Bill who impersonated me. But I wasted him! I am a good citizen and father.

Yea, right....

-- Bill


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