carp swimming in the pond

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carp swimming in the pond

Postby David Elkins » Thu May 13, 1999 6:15 am

Hello

Who can help out with the Japanese names of the movements of koyno shipuchi tate uchi?

Thanks!

David

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carp swimming in the pond

Postby David Elkins » Thu May 13, 1999 6:44 pm

Thanks much Bill and Lori Sensei,

I appreciate the help. Any read on the names for the four individual movements?

David
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carp swimming in the pond

Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu May 13, 1999 7:31 pm

Just add the following modifiers to the word "uchi" as is appropriate.

jodan = high
chudan = middle
gedan = low
tatte = verticle
yoko = horizontal
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carp swimming in the pond

Postby David Elkins » Thu May 13, 1999 7:37 pm

Thanks again.

Are both horizontal movements referred to as "yoko" or are there terms that differentiate inner from outer?

D.
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Postby David Elkins » Thu May 13, 1999 7:37 pm

Thanks again.

Are both horizontal movements referred to as "yoko" or are there terms that differentiate inner from outer?

D.

[This message has been edited by David Elkins (edited 05-13-99).]
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Postby gjkhoury » Fri May 14, 1999 12:50 am

Hi Dave:

Outer (in terms of blocking) is "soto"; Inner is "uchi", "naka" or other.

You can see how this can be challenging: Koi no shippo uchi, uchi uchi! "Carp tail strike, inner strike"! (Actually, there are other ways to express this -- I'm being a wise guy.)

You have hit on a simple but interesting difference in doing Uechi ryu "in English" and doing the same "in Japanese". In English, we are doing fishtail "blocks". In Japanese, we are doing fishtail "STRIKES"!

How does this change your thinking?! How does it change the movement? The application?

There are other exmples, but this is a good beginning!

Keep training!

Gary

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carp swimming in the pond

Postby David Elkins » Fri May 14, 1999 2:01 am

Gary Sensei,

Thanks for illuminating this fishy issue.

Your response reinforces the way I see all of our movements. You notice I never called them "blocks." The movement is the movement. If you can hit something with it, so much the better.

I'm on board bro!

Thanks again to all.




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Postby Bill Glasheen » Fri May 14, 1999 5:09 am

Do you want the English translation or the Japanese Romanji?? If the latter, I'll need to look it up to get the spelling right. Rich and I worked on this before and had our dictionaries out.

Literally it translates (word by word) as:

carp - of - tail - vertical - strike

but your particular rendition is somewhat redundant. What you wrote was

carp - of - tail - strike - vertical - strike

If you forgive my spelling of the first and third words (even though I think I have them right), it should be written (spoken) as:

Koi no shippo tatte uchi

and if you switch "yoko" for "tatte" you get "horizontal" instead of "vertical".

The "shortened" way to say this is:

Koi no shippo uchi

which implies neither horizontal nor vertical. I mentioned that so you can see how the redundancy came in.

-- Bill



[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 05-13-99).]
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Postby Lori » Fri May 14, 1999 5:15 am

Hi David-san,

From the way you titled the thread - seems you've already got the "koi" part - I'm sure Gary Khoury will have a much better explanation when he sees this. For now - here's my own take on it - From what I understand - Koi no Shippo Uchi Tate Uchi is broken down like this
the "koi" is for the fish - fish-tailed type blocks.
"no shippo" refers to technique
"Uchi" is a strike
"tate" means vertical (the "yoko" ones are horizontal)

Again, I'm sure Gary-san could give a much better explanation with his knowledge of the Japanese - but that's how I describe it in class so far. (Until I learn a better way!)

Peace,
Lori
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Postby Lori » Fri May 14, 1999 5:18 am

Just saw Bill-san's post when mine posted - good to know I'm not completely off base! Didn't mean to be redundant!
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Fri May 14, 1999 5:19 am

Look, ma, real time posting!!
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Postby RACastanet » Sun May 16, 1999 4:42 am

Bill G. sensei once said that a carp's tail does not really move vertically (unless it is sick and on its side). Accordingly, I added kujira no shippo tatte uchi (whale tail) to my class's reportoire to be anatomically correct. Hmmm....... Would Kanei mind?

Rich
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Postby David Elkins » Tue May 18, 1999 6:25 pm

Rich,

I would hope that he would appreciate the linguistic spell that you wove to amplify the potential of the srike from that of a carp to a whale. Based upon that, I think he would approve.

David
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Tue May 18, 1999 7:09 pm

Anthony

Can't answer you on the whiskers. On the movement of spines in fish vs mammals, yes. But not whiskers.

On a more serious note, I was in Sensei John Carria's dojo in Northern Virginia visiting Sensei Jim Thompson this weekend. While there, I reviewed a yellowed chart on the wall that was an official document of the Uechi Ryu karate association. This is exactly what it had on the wall for the two exercises:

koi no shippo uchi - tate uchi

koi no shippo uchi - yoko uchi


Note that it is not one, but two phrases (separated by a dash). That explains my contention that koi no shippo uchi tate uchi is redundant.

The translation of this on that document was very loose. I can't even remember the phrase they used for the first part, but my sense was that it wasn't very good english. However there was something interesting that I hadn't considered before. Their translation of tate was not vertical, but rather perpendicular.

As I said before, koi no shippo tate uchi would be the way to say it in a single phrase.

-- Bill
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Postby Lori » Wed May 19, 1999 2:41 am

Bill-san,

I believe I have a copy of the poster of which you speak - actually - I have two - one with the junbi undo as well - with all their Japanese names which I have never mastered. The Hojo undo sheet is entitled "Drills in the Technical Fundamentals of Uechi Ryu Karate Do" and has all of the exercises listed in Japanese - followed by the english pronunciation - followed by the translation. The Koi exercises are listed exactly as you wrote them - the translations are as follows:

Koi No Shippo Uchi - Tate Uchi: Cyprinoid Tail Beating Exercise (Perpendicular Beating)

Koi No Shippo Uchi - Yoko Uchi: Cyprinoid Tail Beating Exercise (Side-Beating)

That is word for word what is written there - some dictionary they must have had to get cyprinoid from koi!

Just FWIW.

Peace,
Lori
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