Respect of Dan Ranks

[Gary Santaniello]

Having had a small group discussion with a few dan ranks and instructors this morning a question was put forth. Should a person of equal dan rank or lower rank make "corrections" to higher ranked seniors? A couple of people in the group seemed to think that this is or should be o.k. I do not agree! Surely we are all human and none of us are perfect. However, it is the job of the sensei whom one studies under to "critique" and/or correct us instructuctors or seniors, not the position of those whom are several ranks behind us. Surely it would be appropriate to ask respectfully why one may perform a particular movement in a somewhat different way. Although a senior "may" be performing in an incorrect fashion, they may also be performing in a different or more advanced way that is unknown to the lower rank who "thinks" he/she is corecting the senior. We are all or should be, on that continuous path of perfection and self developement. Surely, that is "The Way' of karate-do. Once one obtains a position of "I am the great one" whom knows all, the ego takes over, which is another subject in itself. Please note this is my first post on any subject. I look foward to getting involved in some most interesting topics that some of you are presenting in the forum. I would like to believe that we seniors are seniors because we have more depth and understanding of what we are doing. Not simply that we have put in time and rank which was handed to us because we just showed up and paid or tuitions. Although, i am sure many fit into that catagory, unfortunately. Let us keep the respect of eachother in line and yes, it goes both ways! Domo Arrigoto!

------------------



Gary S.


Gary S

[JOHN THURSTON]

Gary:

I was corrected last night by one of my Shodans who said my "Wa-Ukes" were starting a bit wide (ie: wind up).

Well, I'm glad he noticed it.

However, frankness emboldens me to suggest that corrections to your senior should best be made other than in front of other students.

Ideally, it should not be a problem, but practically---ask a question: "Uh-exactly where should we start the Wa-uke's?"

Naturally, I was perfectly mature about the whole thing, as I am sure you can discern.

JOHN T

------------------


[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited 06-06-99).]

[gjkhoury]

Hi Gary:

I'm with you and it's not just because we share the same first name.

When --and only when-- my students or others have walked a mile in my shoes, they can comment on what they may or may not understand or see.

A shodan tells me that my front kick is a little bit off and I just might be inclined to show him/her how it works.

Just me. I'm a bit of a "traditionalist" in that sense.

Regards,

Gary II

------------------
Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury

[mikemurphy]

Gary S-san,

You pose a very good question. I guess it depends on the situation and the environment. For example, I have students in my dojo who have been with me 15/20 years, whom I respect very much. They go to the same seminars that I do, and are just as emphatic about their training as I am. If we are together after class and they say they have seen something that I am doing (remember that a bad habit is just a moment of ignorance away)he may tell me so. I am greatful for his insight and sincerity. However, if I am in the middle of a class and he said something in front of the entire class, I think that would be extremely inappropriate and would not be tolerated.

To stave this off, I tell my students to do as I say, not as I do, because our bodies are not the same and will probably not function the same way. Instead of stopping every second during class to explain this fact of life, it is hopeful the student grasps the concept quickly and moves on with their training.

Bottom line....again, I think it depends on the moment and the intent.

Just my $0.02.

Yours in budo,
Mike

[Van Canna]

This is a very delicate problem , but really an easy one to solve if you are a traditionalist , as Gary Khoury points out !

I will take the Tomoyose sensei approach to this every time i.e., when overseeing a class , he would correct my students but first he would ask me permission to do so ! He would never correct my many mistakes in front of my students ; only in private !

If you permit your lower ranking students to correct you ; subliminally they will respect you less and in the long run your authority as a teacher will be undermined and your class will end up in chaos and you will loose control !

Also the correction bit at advanced ranks is totally a subjective concept and it can create discord ! Look at the Okinawan example ; their seniors ridicule each other's form ! What a joke !

Kata performance is individual specific , especially at the 7th dan and above level ; the key to budo is the development of the inner self / expression while retaining the basic core concept and not the blind following of a fixed pattern of movements without creativity! When I look at kata performance I judge the whole body language message as opposed to any given interpretation of a movement , !

You usually know immediately , by the way a practitioner moves , whether or not he is a good Budoka !

The best way to take care of the' correction problem' is for high dans to work out together as much as they can in private sessions and to'discuss'or suggest variations to accommodate heightened performance ! That way 'corrections' take care of themselves !




------------------
Van Canna

[Dave Hunter]

Hi everbody,

Maybe I have entered with too much of a "BANG" on the "historical forum" but please, such is my nature...I guess if you folks would spend just a couple of weeks here on Virgin Islands, many of your "worries" would just simply disapear..I say worries or maybe dillemas or what the heck.. Well, since we still wait for those two symbols to be posted, may I pass on a couple of my thoughts on the subject you're discussin'.

I have done a bit of Karate in my youth so I've got some hint of what you're talkin' about. One of the very first statements that attracted me to begin Karate was, that my first instructor said: "the greatest masters of the art, practise karate as THE WAY OF THEIR LIFE". So, I thought this is not just a part-time amusement when one can pull a few bad jokes and than leave out without consequences. Because such is life. Whatever we do affects others and of course in reverse.

You know there are many visitors from far away countries (some I even never heard off) coming for a vacation to Virgin Islands. Just yesterday I have spoken to a young guy, who came somewhere from Europe. He had just finished hugh school and his proffesor spent a weekend (remember a weekend) in Big Apple NY. And he was rattlin' to his students how f...terrible this America is (remember America). Jizzz, this young fellow said, I had to go there and taste it for maself. And he went and had been there for four month, hiking around thru 38 States, he said. And what was his impression? He loved it. He said he associated mostly with middle class people and although in hus small country he is NOBODY, there in Big America, he was treated with attention, everbody wonderin', what's he's doin', and i tell ya this guy likes to do a hell of a lot of things..and he amazed a hell of a lot of people..and they all had fun..

So, what has got all this to do with respect of the masters..well, i think if the masters Do their karate as "the way of life" than they deserve all the respect as any other citizen who is ANYHOW living his own way of life.

So, it depends on evry master, some deserve more respect and some less..they are no saints, aren't they...as other wise this dicipline would be called Karate but
Saint-te (or the Way of the Saints).

So, what's all this got to do with corrections. Well when i was practisin' i never was corrected. Funny, it's the same as in my life..if one would insist that he would correct my life i would say..good-by fellow, I'm grown up and I take my responsibilites so, I know damn good if I'm gonna make troubles, than i'm gonna find maself in a lotta troubles. For me it's that's simple.
And did i get anywhere at karate..well, i quitted before being proclaimed a master, but my teacher was not correcting me..he always just wondered..Dave, what the hell are you tryin' to do with your moves..and i had to produce some sound answer (with ma techiques) if not he would demonstrate me..and most of the time he convinced me that he was more effective...there were also a couple of times he had failed, but he said to me...if you Dave understand this discipline as "the way of life" than you must know, that everybody has right for a mistake and he'd better correct it as soon as possible not to make a fool out of himself...and he did, so soon after, I was not able to pull any of ma tricks on him...


Well, enough for ma ramblin' got go for another tour around the island, to see if any new "chicks" arrived...

Yours
Dave

[Kevin Mackie]

One has to consider the forum in which the corrections are to be made along with who the senior is.

Rule Number One, don’t correct the Teacher, ever. He should be working with those at his/her own level and get corrections then.

If it’s simply working with a higher rank (not the teacher) during class, and the object of the exercise is to examine form or such, then I suggest asking for clarification on a movement as opposed to a direct critique.

Bad Example: “Hey, you sloth, try to put a little more effort into it next time”.
Good example: “ How do you get that power into your thrust while appearing so relaxed?”

The use of either example will prove to be a genuine learning experience. Choose yours.

VTY

Kevin

[Bill Glasheen]

Jason

Good to hear from you again.

We can take this discussion off-line if you wish, but J.D. is right. Igor...er...I mean ignor the ranting from a flamer.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Interesting discussion. There's certainly a degree of discretion and style here when it comes to how one handles this.

In the past I have been highly tolerant of people commenting on my form in class. But even with that degree of freedom that I have allowed, I have also demanded what J.D. has appropriately described as "manners." And I have learned much both by understanding the sensitivities of my own students (I used to be accused of having very little tact) as well as the clever way that some of my mentors (like George) would handle things. Interestingly enough, George has this way of coming into your dojo and showing you things he sees in your students as a very clever and tactful way of telling you something about your own karate and what you are doing. It achieves a lot all at once: it is nonthreatening to the person being critiqued, it is easy for you to see your own error in someone else, and it helps the senior save face.

Ahhhh, the Gary K response... I know it well. Yes, I was one of those pain-in-the-*** students who would be stupid enough and tactless enough to say something like "Sensei, I can't see how you would ever get that technique to work." Ooooooommmmppphhh!! "Oooohhh, I see now. Thank you sensei." But....I never stopped asking question. And I never stopped coming to workout. And I never lost my enthusiasm. Eventually my teachers got used to me, and I learned (the hard way) how not to ask my questions.

Manners and tact.....that's the ticket. It transcends the martial arts arena. A businesman never embarasses or directly criticizes the C.E.O. in a board meeting. The intern learns to never embarrass the attending in front of a patient. But in both cases (and particularly in medicine where a patient's life is on the line), communication must take place when a situation is serious enough. There is a right way to do it. Discussions in private are good (I do this quite often with my bosses). Self-deprecating or otherwise gently-spoken comments are good (I know I'm slow but...I've never done things that way before. That's interesting...). Humor is a great way to be blunt (hence the role of a court jester). Rudeness is universally undesireable. And in an autocracy (which is what martial arts is), it is unwise.

But there's a flip side to the coin here. A really good teacher should be up to the task of innocent and sincere questions from the students. Again, this is true both in the karate dojo as well as the academic arena or business or whatever. A good leader is not threatened by what is right. Often the student is wrong or doesn't understand the ambiguities that come about with "style". This then creates an opportunity for the teacher to teach. Great!! And I have often admired teachers and leaders of all sorts who were secure enough to say something like "I don't know" or "Gosh, you have a point." So just as a teacher should demand an atmosphere of respect and manners in the dojo, so should s/he also be secure enough and of strong-enough character to let the student know that s/he does not belong on a pedistal.

- Bill

[Jason Bernard]

Here we go again ... you all know what I am talking about.

"And did i get anywhere at karate..well, i quitted before being proclaimed a master, but
my teacher was not correcting me"

Out of pure morbid curiousity why did you "quitted" (sic) if this were something you saw as a way of life? What exactly would have been the proclamation of master been? Were you about to get you 1st dan, 10th dan or something in-between?

"..he always just wondered..Dave, what the hell are you tryin' to do with your moves..and i had to produce some sound answer (with ma techiques) if not he would demonstrate me..and most of the time he convinced me that he was more effective...there were also a couple of times he had failed, but he said to me...if you Dave understand this discipline as "the way of life" than you must know, that everybody has right for a mistake and he'd better correct it as soon as possible not to make a fool out of himself...and he did, so soon after, I was not able to pull any of ma tricks on him..."

What is truly amazing is that you don't see this as correction? Your previous paragraph said you were never corrected. Now, this may be an unusual (and in my view, largely ineffective if used as the sole means of correction) form of correction but it is correction none-the-less. Just so that you can see it clearly lets break it down:

1) Your instructor saw an error in your technique.
2) He asked you what you were doing.
3) If you failed to answer/demonstrate properly, he showed you the proper way.

From the American Heritage Dictionary - "Correction: 1. The act or process of correcting."

And one last thing, what exactly does the fact that you were never corrected have to do with whether a junior rank should correct a senior rank?

As to *that* question, a junior rank should only correct a senior rank in private if he knows the senior rank well. Otherwise, he should respectfully ask about the method the technique(s) were done and then tell the senior about the way he was taught. I.e. a dialogue is okay... correction is not. This is, of course, in my view.

The junior rank should not presume the senior rank is wrong. Different schools even in the same style do thing differently. They have different focuses, different objective and aims for their students. Also, for the most unless you get down to raw basics (it is plain wrong to hit with the tips of the toes in a bare foot front kick ... some hit with the heel some with the ball of the foot, but the toes is just plain foolish) there is little that is *purely* wrong in many techniques or methodologies, especially when it comes to kata. Interpretations vary, especially in combination as above with the difference of objectives and aims for the dojo.

Osu!
Jason

[Gary Santaniello]

I find that in reading the responses on this subject, there are many good points made. Certainly a level of respect should be maintaied for the instructor of the class and i would agree that a "correction" should be posed to a higher rank as a "suggestion" as Van Canna Sensei points out. Thanks for your input, always a pleasure to hear your view.

Many others have had some very good discussion on this issue and i thank you all for participating on the subject. Except for the "ignoramous" with his rambling of nothingness.

Domo Arrigato"s

------------------



Gary S.


Gary S