A rather long discussion (pardon me) on Faith, quackery and

[Bob]

I hope that this topic which combines an odd array of religious talk, science and healing does not offend anyone. I realize these all can be sensitive topics to many in the audience. Thank you for the opportunity to express this and thank you to all the soldiers who have served the country so that I have this freedom. Happy fourth of July and Independance Day! Domo Gonzaimos Arrigato.
Several thousands of years ago humans were told through the eye of faith that goop and pus coming out of wounds is dangerous to health and special precautions should be taken to prevent infection (the Book of Levitcus in the Old Testament chapter 15). Spiritual men felt inspired enough on the topic to devote a whole chapter of what we now call the Bible to it. Yet men of science, and other experts, said this folklore was poppycock until the 20th century.
Pierre Pachet, leading professor of physiology at Toulouse, in 1872 (almost a full 20 years after the discovery of germs) said "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". However once medicine accepted Pasteurs discovery and did simple things like washing their hands between cutting off gangrenous legs and birthing babies - the death rate began to drop.
"1/2 of the children born die before their eighth year. This is nature's law; why try to contradict it" - Jean Jacques Rousseau, author of the most widely read child rearing manual of its day, 1762.
How many lives could have been saved if experts had heeded the words of faith? And as martial artists, do we care?
Jack LaLanne opened his first health club (based on sound nutrition and exercise) in 1936 (Time magazine, January 27, 1997 page 18). About that same time medical experts told us :
1) "Prolonged exercise of any nature can exhaust the body and lead to invalidism and eventually death. Even the game of golf can be unduly stressful. Those who do indulge should break for a smoke and a drink between nines" - The Hygeia, a health magazine published by the AMA in 1931
2)"If excessive smoking actually plays a role in the production of lung cancer it seems to be a minor one" - Dr. Heuper of the National Cancer Institute, quoted in the New York Times, April 14, 1954.
3) "For the majority of people, smoking has a beneficial effect" - Dr. Ian G. MacDonald, Los Angeles Surgeon, quoted in Newsweek, Nov 18, 1963.
Jack LaLanne was no medical expert, was called a "health nut" whose ideas were not only scientifically unsound but very dangerous. Interestingly Dr. MacDonald died of lung cancer (he was a smoker) and Jack LaLanne at 84 is planning a swim from Los Angeles to the Catalina Islands. Sure some of that is genetics, but much is diet and lifestyle.
How much is just faith? A 29 year study shows us strokes are 50% more likely in depressed people (Society of Behavioral medicine meeting 1997) - as though we didn't have enough to be depressed about. A 1995 study at Dartmouth-Hitchcock medical center finds one of the best predictors of survival after heart surgery is the degree to which people say they draw strength from religion. A study of women with hip fractures found those who go to church could walk farther than those who did not. A 30 year study found churchgoers have a lower blood pressure on the average than those who do not. Mind/Body? Faith? Placebo? Something that is really there? Harmful to believe?
And what about the anti-oxidants mentioned previously in other postings?
Vitamin C the best known anti-oxidant has been shown to :
1) Lower blood pressure in mild hypertensive patients (Vitamin C and cardiovascular disease, J Am Coll Nutr, 11:107-25, 1992).
2) plummet in people after bypass surgery (Depletion of vitamin C..in response to cardiac operations . J Thorac Cardiovasc Surg 108:308-11,1994).
3) reduce the risk for virtually all forms of cancer including lung, colon, breast, cervix, esophagus, oral cavity, and pancreas (Vitamin C and cancer prevention: the epidemiological evidence. Am J Clin Nutr, 53:270S-82S, 1991).
4) Help reduce the risk of breast cancer. A quote reads "Vitamin C intake has the most consistent and statistically significant inverse association with breast cancer risk" (Dietary factors and risk of breast cancer. J Natl Cancer Inst 82:561-9, 1990)
5) Everyone knows about Linus Pauling (Nobel Prize winner) and his research on cancer treatment with vit C, but fewer know that a study of 1,826 "incurable" cancer patients showed that "the ascorbate supplemented patients had an overall survival time (353) almost double that of the controls(180 days)". (Innovation vs. quality control : An "unpublishable" clinical trial of supplemental ascorbate in incurable cancer. Med Hypothesis 36:185-9, 1991)
5) Individuals with high vitamin C (and other anti-oxidants) have a much lower cataract incidence as well as macular degeration ( Relationship between nutrition and oxidation. J AM Coll Nutr, 12:138-46, 1993 AND Vitamin C and the aging eye. Arch Int Med 63:930-45, 1939
AND Senile cataract and ascorbic acid loading Acta Opthalmol 63:277-80, 1985)
6) Helps diabetics. It reduces glycosylation of protein, which is a very bad thing that causes most of the physical deterioration in people with diabetes including the risk of plaque formation in arteries. It reduces sorbitol accumulation (which is toxic) even in Type 1 diabetics. Increased wound healing, reduces capillary permeability, improves immune function and reduces cholesterol in diabetics. (Low plasma ascorbate levels in patients with type 2 diabetes consuming adequate dietary vit C: Diabet Med 11:893-8, 1994 AND Magnesium and Ascorbic acid supplementation in diabetes Mellitus. Am Nutr Metab 39:217-23, 1995 AND Renal excretion of ascorbic acid in insulin dependant diabetes. Int J Vitam Nutr Res 64, 1994 AND Vit C: An Aldose reductase inhibitor that normalizes erythrocyte sorbitol in insulin dependant diabetes . J Am Coll Nutr 13:344-50, 1994 AND Effect of vit C on glycoslyation of proteins. Diabetes 41:167-73, 1992 -- there are others but even I am getting bored at this point).
The point? There is no doubt (or should be none) that medicine is effective. There may never be a time in human history where for example someone won't need insulin. But alternative methods of healing : prayer, washing a goopy wound, vitamins, acupuncture are all very safe.............so as long as someone is being monitored wisely with good tests (EKG, vascular ultrasound, bloodwork, tumor markers, MRI, etc) what is wrong with implementing them in a patient care protocol?
It is something to ponder.

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 07-05-99).]

[Kevin Mackie]

Bob, may I suggest "Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Religion" by
Chet Raymo a noted professor of physic and astronomy at Stonehill College. It's a great book and covers many of the areas you mentioned. beside presenting facts clearly, he's a great writer to boot. About $11 in paperback at Barnes & Noble or at your library.

Kevin

[gmattson]

Excellent post Bob. In my frequent head-on discussions with Dr. X, I've attempted to say what you have so eloquently stated.

As a postscript to your words may I add:

What will "Bob" from the 22nd century say about current medical beliefs? What role do you think the "healing" arts will play?

------------------
GEM



[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited 07-04-99).]

[Collin Warder]

Doc:

Of course something that has been disproven or has been shown useless will not find a re-surgance, but what specifically has been disproven? More importantly, what has been shown to be useless and would this simply be an opinion of yours? Propulsid won't stop my baby's refluxing but it will supress it for a while, does that make it useless? I suppose it would, if the refluxing was indicative of a larger problem, and the propulsid made you forget about correcting the problem. Oh well, sign me up for a Neisen.

On a congruent point: I agree with you that if accupuncture and related healing arts only relieve the symptoms of an ailment, without actually combating it, then it is truly only doing harm. Perhaps a combination of the two? One to cure while the other relieves the symptoms? I suppose that would defeat the purpose of such arts? Might as well down the T w/ Codeine eh?

[Lori]

Dr. X said that this is martial arts page? *gasp!* I thought I had wandered into a PBS special...

I've chosen to refrain from posting my views on "alternative" (for want of a better term) medicine - though in the past I have ventured into those turbulent waters - of late I haven't had the time... been too busy in the dojo actually...

Lest that sound too pompous - (well why change the tone?) let me say that Bob's post is most excellent - developing his premise and offering a plethora of supporting studies and documented references - I wish I had the knowlege to present my own feelings in such a well-done fashion! At the risk of offending our friend Doctor X (oh what the hell - go ahead!) I still am waiting to see documentation of all these "criticisms" and "studies" other than the "quackwatch" page which certainly has IT's own agenda... not that the debunking of charlatans isn't a necessary exercise in the endless search for truth - BUT - zealots can be found in many mediums - including the Inquisition, among others. And the quest for TRUTH can often be twisted by statistics, politics and personal belief systems. As Bob so nicely described in his initial post - proponents of "truth" are often disdained by popular belief...

But I ramble! My apologies.

My reason for this post is that a remark of Doctor X's above strikes a nerve that relates in a way back to martial arts! (another GASP!) -- the almighty $$$

True enough - the $$$ drives the marketing and revival of many "alternative" therapies, or frauds, or whatever term you like best... but I ask you my friend (yes - he is actually a friend - even if he thinks I am deluded about homeopathy - never mind that his own delusions prevent him from realizing... oh never mind!) What was I saying? Oh yes, I ask you Doctor X, are not MANY surgical procedures performed unnecessarily? Shall I quote statistics about unnecessary caesarian sections when a natural birth was still possible? What about surgeries that fit the insurance description in lieu of one that may fit the patient's needs better? (sorry - don't have stats on that one - maybe Bob can help me out here) OK, personal anecdote (yeah yeah I know that means nothing to you in your deluded, excuse me, narrow-minded, no - still too harsh, how about "unenlightened" state?) I have been told I needed surgery two times in my life. One time it was supposed to be "life-threatening" - and three surgeons tried to scare me into it - (FEAR! Oh yes - the great controller and money maker - just ask some of the biggest religious institutions in history! But I digress...) So, I did NOT have the surgeries - and a decade later, I am still alive and in excellent health! What did I do, I pursued alternative "therapies" - crazy you say? Deluded? I hear you I hear you. But those surgeons are unfortunately short an extra pool table in their rumpus room and I have my organs intact... am I an isolated case? Don't think so.

Lest you think I'm sour on the medical profession, let me assure you that this is not the case. Some of my best friends are doctors! Ha! Seriously - modern, aka western, aka conventional medicine is a necessary and important part of our civilization, one I appreciate and utilize when necessary. But just as the alternative methods are questioned, so should the "conventional" ones. As you very nicely point out I might add! You will never admit to being swayed by my posts advocating everyone to become an "educated" consumer to the best of their ability - so I'll go ahead and give you the credit for that one.

And I said this had to relate to karate somehow? Yes - when it comes to the $$$ and the questionable practices. We can pontificate about whatever subject and morality we care too... the martial arts world is no different in this respect. There are the "MacDojo's" written about at times - enticing baiting and further deluding the hapless potential student - selling them a bill of goods (and about a billion belts) in the name of the mysterious martial arts. The hawkers of the "herb-du-jour" do the same. And so do some surgeons. Each of these groups is NOT all inclusive. I post it only as an "alternative" point of view! Ha!

Shred away good Doctor X - I apologize to the public if I have unwittingly provoked him into providing about a zillion links to "criticisms" of the cited studies of Bob. As for me - I've got to go work on my kata.

Peace,
Lori

[Bob]

GEE, DON'T YOU HAVE TO BE REAL SMART TO BE A DOCTOR?
I do want to add that I do not across the board endorse alternative healers nor all alternative healing methods. I have my finger on the pulse of alternative healing fairly well and will be in the forefront to admit the field has some real problems. For me the foremost of which is as I have mentioned before - lack of proper diagnostics and subsequent monitoring. How many herbalists, acupuncturists etc watch the treatment results using bloodwork, EKG etc?
Being from a very "modern" medically oriented family, my interest in alternative healing was hard won. My brother graduated top of the class at Johns Hopkins and is a trauma certified orthopedic surgeon, I am a doctor as well, My well educated family was very against all the alternative methods. But I have realized how egocentric we educated elitists can be. Because of our fine expensive educations (as well as being thoroughly modern) we somehow think we know better than the average man, and certainly better than primitive man.
But take some civilized doctor (like Frazier Crane perhaps) and drop him in the woods and ask him to find rocks with crude ore, make a fire and molten a metal knife and other instruments out of metal. No way could he do it, yet it was common knowledge to the ignorant "savages" several thousand years ago. The Incas and Aztecs made roads that are still in daily use, while we cannot make a road to withstand 5 years of traffic. The point? - humans of all classes and divisions are not as dumb as we well credentialed doctors may think.
For that reason alone we ought to give heed to what the average man chooses. The November 11, 1998 Journal of the American Medical Association reported a study that shows almost twice as many Americans go to alternative healers as to primary care physicians - and pay out of pocket. If these common people who are smart enough to be able to fix a car motor (while I cannot) find enough value to pay for care out of their hard earned money perhaps we ought to take a look. And I think we all know medicine will eventually try to lay claim to the methods now called "alternative" - if not for any other reason besides it is lost revenue (not a good reason but it is still a reason to investigate the trend).
It has been stated that 30% (15 million) of all surgeries a year are unecessary [Nightline, ABC, 3/3/93]. We now know that hospital prescription drugs (not street drugs, not over the counter drugs, not drugs from a MD's private office) are the 4th leading cause of death in the USA [ Journal of the American Medical Association, 279:1200-5, 1998].
If we put hosptial prescription drug deaths into the US Surgeon General's top 10 causes of death list....AIDS drops off the chart...gone...goodbye. More money is donated to AIDS research by far than to cancer research (#2 cause of death). We know that diet and lifestyle contribute immensely to the top 3 causes of death (Heart attack, cancer and stroke) and if we did nore "alternative" diet treatments we would see these decrease and would as a result see (I would hope) less hospital prescriptions needed. So are not anti-oxidants invaluable?
WELL IF HE SAID IT THEN IT MUST BE TRUE
Dr.X defers for validation to Stephen Barret, famed quackbuster, as though it is quoting Moses and no other verIfication is needed. Another article sums up such quackbusting experts well :
"Why does it make sense to the mainstream media, when it comes to "alternative medicine" to rely on medical "experts" who have no experience in the field of alternative medicine? For example, one medical doctor, an oft-quoted "expert" who belives such alternative medicine is "quackery" was recently deposed under oath in a federal court litigation. When he was asked if he was an expert in the field of nutritional medicine, he stated, "My expertise is in consumer strategy". This "expert" readily admitted under oath to have written "There is no evidence that CoQ10..... increases CoQ10 levels in the body....Supplementing with CoQ10 may be dangerous for some people". Yet when asked if prior to writing the statement he had "reviewed the scientific literature on CoQ10" or could he "cite a study on CoQ10 toxicity," this expert just as readily answered "No" to both questions. When asked, " What is the biological function of CoQ10?", his "expert" response was "I'm not an expert on CoQ10". When asked "Have you reviewed the literature on ginko biloba and ringing in the ears or tinnitus?", his "expert" response was "I have not reviewed the literature on any herb that I can think of." Incredible" [Medical Experts, Who do you trust?, Alternative Medicine Review, Vol.2 No.2, March 1997].
I cannot condemn Dr.Barret, because I do not know his motives for quackbusting. If he is operating according to his best conscience - more power to him. A sincere effort is always appreciated.
But to say that homeopathy, naturopathy and chiropractry have all been proven wrong is not true - and again there is no documentation (an ingredient all so important to martial arts chat forums) to support such a statement. Dr. Andrei Pikalov, MD who lives in Kansas City and to whom I have had the pleasure of talking with on the internet did an interesting study on spinal manipulation (not necessarily chiropractic). He had a group of patients with endoscopically confirmed duodenal ulcers. 1/2 got standard medical care and the other 1/2 got a spinal manipulation ("popped" their backs, he did). Guess what? Those who had their backs popped got better 10 days earlier. Another study found that of 1,567 patients with indigestion 22% found relief following chiropractic care [J of Manip Ther, 19(5): 317-23, 1996].
While I do not just wholesale endorse alternative (especially divorced from modern diagnostic services), I feel it is high egotism to dismiss it because it is performed by non-medical personel or was used by "primitive" man. In wars between mainstream and alternative healers it is only the patient that suffers. Whose best interest do we have at heart?
As far as comparing debunking alternative to laughing at Edison - Edison said "The phonograph is of no commercial value" and "The radio craze will die out".

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 07-06-99).]

[Bill Glasheen]

And may I also add....

One other element that is common to both self defense and medicine is humor. In fact when I had to test 50 to 100 people at a time in my UVa days, I used to give people a written test on history and other martial knowledge (Japanese names, etc). In the beginning of the test I would ask a stupid question like "What is your favorite color?" or "What is it that most interferes with mushin when you do sanchin?" The student would get extra credit if they could make me laugh with their answer. The best responses got read in front of class the following week.

Humor has gotten my butt out of more than a couple of fights. Humor has helped more than a few patients either survive a deadly disease or succumb to it with grace and dignity, thus enhancing their quality of life. It's all part of the mind-body thing that Bob has brought up.

With that in mind, I would like to nominate both J.D.-san and Lori-chan for their junior rokudan, based on their ability to entertain all of us while entertaining an issue. Perhaps we could invite them to a camp where they could be taught the secret handshake and given embroidered, traditional underwear.

- Bill

[Collin Warder]

Bob:

A small point...

"For that reason alone we ought to give heed to what the average man chooses. The November 11, 1998 Journal of the American Medical Association reported a study that shows almost twice as many Americans go to alternative healers as to primary care physicians - and pay out of pocket. If these common people who are smart enough to be able to fix a car motor (while I cannot) find enough value to pay for care out of their hard earned money perhaps we ought to take a look."

Every living being in our world could choose alternative healing and it still wouldn't make it viable. There have been plenty of times in history when the average man has chosen poorly. If majority was a good arguemnet we'd still all be reluctant to make an ocean voyage in fear of falling off of the edge of the world. Just imagine what the field of astrophysics would be like if we still believed in geocentrisim.

I agree with you in that alternative healing practices have yet to proven invalid, but I also believe that there needs to be more substantial arguements than "Everyone does it, it must have some value," in order to prove its worth to the sceptics.

-Collin

[Bill Glasheen]

Bob

Thanks for raising the standard of discussion on this web page. You are truly both gentleman and scholar, and put documented discourse over emotional diatribe.

Just this morning I was following this woman who ultimately headed into the "academic" area of Richmond as I made the turn towards my for-profit place of work. She had this great bumper sticker on her car: MILITANT AGNOSTIC - I don't know and neither do you. I wanted so badly to honk and give her the thumbs up (for a great sense of humor) but I spared her the possibility of interpreting a honk being more than a honk... But her cold view of god and religion made me think a bit more about this discussion.

I have a few comments worth mentioning given some of what you posted. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

A 1995 study at Dartmouth-Hitchcock medical center finds one of the best predictors of survival after heart surgery is the degree to which people say they draw strength from religion.

Did they also query whether or not people had nonreligious spiritual practices like practicing martial arts or yoga or even tran$endental meditation? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

A study of women with hip fractures found those who go to church could walk farther than those who did not.

Did it ever occur to anyone that women who go to church are more likely to have higher levels of activity than women who sit on their ***es in their homes feeling sorry for themselves? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

A 30 year study found churchgoers have a lower blood pressure on the average than those who do not.

Yes, but the same has been found for those people who own pets.

Meanwhile, I get up at 7 AM Sunday morning for my breakfast, and am desperate to find something entertaining on the boob tube to watch while eating breakfast (and my family sleeps). In Richmond, all I can find (since I refuse to get cable) is channel after channel of charismatic preachers talking about god and prayer and healing. Oh well, at least that's entertainment. They tell me that if I pray to god, that He will heal me. (Gee, I thought we were supposed to be praying for our decrepit souls and to live better lives.)

Do I have a point? Actually yes. All the studies you site are believable. And yet, it's the causality thing that most people have a problem with. Why do some things work? Was it my guardian angel that made that woman honk at me when I drove in front of her yesterday while mindlessly sightseeing? Some people would believe so, and these beliefs would then affect their future actions. I'm thankful that she recognized someone who wasn't paying attention while he was looking at new construction. I put faith in her, and I'll carry a lesson into the next day about driving while trying to do other things (like talking on my cell phone).

Often researchers will discover statistically significant associations. Sometimes the researchers understand the limitations of those association, sometimes they don't. And very often people who read such research have no idea what the true underlying causes are. Statisticians often point out and address this phenomenon by differentiating between what can be measured (or what is observed) and what can be concluded via inferential statistics. The phrase "principle components" is part of their vocabulary.

Can we bring this back to martial arts? Absolutely. As I've stated many, many times before, the healing and fighting arts go hand in hand. That's why we talk about medicine so much. So.....what about this ch'i thingy? What about the cycle of creation vs the cycle of destruction? If I find a combination on the body that hits some points on the body that happen to be accupoints on meridians that follow the cycle of destruction - and I knock you out - does this validate the cycle of destruction as a model which may reliably predict future combinations that I have not already witnessed as being effective? Some people believe so. Some of the ch'i-sters on this page put a lot of faith on this paradigm of the human body and the model which helps them understand how to off the bad guy. And they want others to bet their tuition (and their life in a self-defense situation) on it.

Suddenly I really like the whole idea of scientific inquiry.

I do not mean to insult you, Bob. My impression is that you are bright enough to understand all of this. I'm not so sure of others.

And that's why in both medicine and martial arts, I'm a militant agnostic.

I'll leave this short post with another study which, unfortunately, would take me a while to find the citation for. It was done a few years ago. It seems that a study was done on people who suffered from accute low back pain (ALBP). The issue was which approach to recovery led to the best results. All people in the study who had been identified as having ALBP were randomized to one of three groups. Group 1 was put on a therapeutic regimen that involved exercise under the guidance of a physical therapist. Group 2 was told to rest. And Group 3 got to choose which of the two regimens (exercise or rest) they wanted to do. They were given access to the exercise, but could choose to quit or even not participate if they wanted to.

Guess what the relative performance of the three groups was (as measured by days lost from work)? If you think about it, the answer is obvious.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

The answer to the above....Group 3 did the best, Group 2 did the worst.

[Bob]

sorry, repeated myself...thought one didn't post....

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 07-08-99).]

[Bob]

NIGHTLINE NEWS MAGAZINE CREDIBILITY
Then I used ABC Nightline as a reference I expected it to be a point of counterattack but decided to use it anyway for two reasons : 1) It succinctly made the point. There are dozens and dozens of other peer reviewed studies that would make similar but less complete statements. One for example r. Jack V. Tu in the Nov 12, 1998 New Eng J of Med revealed that the popular surgery called endarctectomy only shows some benefit if done by the very best of the best in the field. For all others the surgery actually increaes the risk of stroke (which it is supposed to prevent).
2) When the most supportive documentation of his claims that Dr. X has offered is "I tink I red sumwhere dat religion or sumptim is bad for you or sumptin.... but see what Dr. Barrett says, he might know sumptin about it", I figured ABC Nightline was good enough. I figured that unless any reference that I might offer had Dr. Barretts name attached it would not be accepted by Dr. X anyway.
2 other examples : 1) Peterson et al in the 4/20/94 issue of the J of the Am Med Assoc showed that blacks at the VA who had been diagnosed with acutre myocardial infarcts were 33% less likely to recieve cardiac catheterization, 42% less likely to get angioplasty and 54% less likely to get bypass than similarly dagnosed whites...yet they had a higher survival rate then the "privelaged" whites who got more surgery. Since the surgeries do not appear to help, why do them?
2) I tink I red sumptin sumwhere dat nutrition or sumptin is good for you or sumptin
COMPARING MARTIAL ARTS AND HEALING
We have discussed how important the basics are to science, martial arts and healing. We discussed how important autonomy is to healing (patients who self guided their exercise healed from their back pain quicker). Since autonomy is so important to healing why do doctors act like they are the captain of the Titanic giving orders to everyione?
The very idea of doctors orders is offensive. A lady who has transitional bladder cancer may have both a landscaper and an oncologist working for her. The only difference is that the lawn person spends hours working for her and gets paid reasonable amounts. The doctor spends perhaps 20 minutes with her and gets paid thousands of times as much. I guess the other difference is the lawn person tries to please her and do what she wants done, and contrarily the doctor issues "doctors orders". Since when does the employee order the employer around? Doctors need to remember that they so average little lady with bladder cancer and the oh so average mechanic who comes to see us puts food on our tables - they are our employers - and we don't order our employers around.
WHen someone is fighting for their life they usually follow the rule of "use whatever works". Who are we to deny a person the use of a backfist because it might be a part of such and such martial arts system and we don't feel it is therefore a proven method....or deny a cancer patient the use of CoQ10 when it is not proven (by Dr. Barrett). And when is it the employees job to tell the employer (patient) what they will or will not do. Yet I have heard far too numerous times an MD tell a patient (employer) that if they do acupunture/vitamins/chiropractic/homeopathy they better not darken their doorstep again.
Often if a method does not work it is not a problem with the method but a problem with the practitioner. In theSept 3 1997 issue of the J of the Am Med Assoc it was determined in a study of over 500 MD's that less than 20% (1/5) off all MD's can accurately diagnose a heart problem with a stethoscope. Mostly because of lack of practice on the basics. Yet these experts feel qualified to order their bosses around.
More often than not experts have been more wrong than right. The reason man for so long felt the earth was flat and if you sailed to the edge you would fall off of it or be eaten by dragons was not because of the average man...it was because of the expert that drew maps (called Cartographers) and the average man just happened to believe that it was so. I am sure Dr. Barrett had his forerunner in the inquisition that made Copernicus recant his idea that the earth was not the center of the universe. You gotta love experts.


[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 07-08-99).]

[Bob]

You are right...the slaughter of your choice of grammar which you used in your decline to offer substantiation of your claims was not polite...I apologize. Tis true...I am lacking as a gentleman... I guess that is why I do not prefer a leggy blonde spouse mentioned covetously in other posts.
As for the offer of the back of hand.... while it is welcomed far and above over misguided sympathy, it is fortunate that it is figurative and not literal. BUN BU ICHI DO - does the prose has more impact than the paw?
In all reality, the degenerate imitation of your post was a cheap shot.... and was unecessary on my part A thousand apologies Herr Doktor..

[This message has been edited by Bob (edited 07-08-99).]

[Lori]

This is getting to be like one of those good movies reviews... "I laughed, I cried, I was on the edge of my seat..."

Ok - well not that good.

Bob: While I was initially heartened by your posts - happy to see that someone with a medical background was "enlightened" enough to maintain an open mind about "alternative" medicine, and canny enough to provide documented references (I still respect that by the way and hope you will continue to do so.) I have to admit I was disappointed that you would descend to base insult upon our good Doctor X, who, although deluded somewhat - is still basically a nice guy and even when he decimates someone with his razor wit, is still pretty polite about it. A curmudgeon, yes, pompous, at times, but courteous. In spite of his faults, one thing he does not have is a lack of command of the English language (his classical Greek is pretty bad though...)

Please keep posting - he needs someone with capability and background such as yours to challenge his presumptions - but I hope that you can continue to do so in the professional manner that we initially saw! To quote our moderator: "elevating the level of this web page... to put documented discourse over emotional diatribe."

Peace,
Lori

PS: had some problems posting this - and composed this before I saw your apology - well done! Looking forward to your future posts.

[Bill Glasheen]

So.... "Lawrence" comes into my office to install a CD writer on Wednesday, and crash, he bring my system down. "No problem, Dr. Bill, I'll have it up in the morning!." The next morning, crash again. And again.

"Oh well," I think to myself, "our usual flamer is back in his cave, and not much bad is likely to happen." "Rrrrrrriiiiinnngggg!" "Hey Bill, seen the forum lately?"

I'm baaa-aaack!

Thank you, dear Lori.

Behave, honorable Dr. X.

- The Moderator