I may be about to open a huge can of worms here, but this is something that has crossed my mind before, and after listening to a very interesting conversation in Mattson Sensei's class on saturday, and another similar one in class tonite, I'm going to see what other people have to say on the subject. Hopefully, I'm not getting into anything to sensitive...if I am, I apologize, and await the lockdown of this thread.
Onto the subject: As students of "classical" or "traditional" martial arts (which most of us on this forum are, to one degree or another), we are often faced with a dillema: How do we know that the techniques we are practicing work? We watch things like the UFC, read Bruce Lee's writings about the "classical mess", and so, and come to the conclusion that we must be practicing an ineffective methodology.
At the same time, we know that this methodology has served warriors in the past, sometimes for thousands of years. It stands to reason that if it was totally useless, it would never have stood this test of time. Similarly, there are plenty of stories of modern students of classical arts who have successfully fought off attackers.
So my question is this: It seems that those who study the classical arts dillegently and properly, who have FAITH in their art and their technique, are often able to apply. But not always. So how far does our faith in the system go? Do we continue to practice all components of our system, assuming that if we find them useless, it is because we don't properly understand them yet, and keep going on the assumption that someday, we will understand, or do we abandon those components of the system which seem unrealistic or ineffective, replacing them with more combat effective practices.
Ultimately, how much faith do we place in our system?
Faith, Reality, and the Martial Arts
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Jake Steinmann
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Collin Warder
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Faith, Reality, and the Martial Arts
As it's my posterior on the line when it counts, I place faith in MYSELF first. If I know that a technique I am practicing holds little real world value, I will stop. If I am using it in a formal setting I will practice in the kwoon/dojo, but not at home. You might say it makes me a bad student, fine. I will never discard the subtle nuances of a system, as they can truly only be understood in time, but techniques are different story.
How do I know that a technique will work? I use my brain. Fighting is a science and if the technique is not scientifically sound, I will never use it. Think, speed, power, economy and above all else, think about human anatomy.
-Collin
How do I know that a technique will work? I use my brain. Fighting is a science and if the technique is not scientifically sound, I will never use it. Think, speed, power, economy and above all else, think about human anatomy.
-Collin
Faith, Reality, and the Martial Arts
A subject so dear to my heart as this one-I must participate!:-)
I don't think Blind faith is good-ths can get you killed.I think faith in a system, a technique, a theory, should be based on first,sound knowledge.
1.What parts of your system, exactly, are thousands/hundreds of years old, and have actually stood the test of time?
What parts were created much more recently and have not been combat tested?
If there are parts of your system which you practice but do not understand, are there people around who do understand, whom you may ask?
Questions meant to be asked of yourselves, by yourselves.
Bumping around in the archives here,lit only by dim torchlight:-) I came upon a comment by GEM Sensei on a video showng students at Kanbum's Dojo in 1948 or so?Mattson Sensei I believe said they appeared to be practicing a different system.I wold love to know more about the differences in what they were doing and what is done today.Fascinates me.
2.Secondly I believe faith in a system must be based on sound understanding.
If one does drills one does not understand,somebody there had better understand them.If n one does, maybe it's time to ask soeone on Okinawa if they understand them, and if they don't either, ask the Chinese.If they have no clue, record the drills for later study and drop 'em in favor of something you do understand that works.
Havng faith in a technique you know will not, at this time, work for you, is not smart, IMHO.
3.Having satisfied yourselves of 1 and 2, have confidence in your techniques.Then they will be more effective than otherwise.
How do we know a technique will work?Well, number one, if you can make a heavy bag shake, rattle and roll, you havve a good indication of workable strikes and kicks.
If you can unbalance your training partner with every block you do, you have a good indication you will be able so to do in the street against a person possibly untrained in karate stancework.
If you can throw a resisting partner on a mat, and stop from being thrown:if you can lock and stop from being locked:if you can do this in the middle of a fast and furious drill done as though you both mean it, then, your techniques may be suitable for actual use.
If not, you will at least know what you need to work on.
John
I don't think Blind faith is good-ths can get you killed.I think faith in a system, a technique, a theory, should be based on first,sound knowledge.
1.What parts of your system, exactly, are thousands/hundreds of years old, and have actually stood the test of time?
What parts were created much more recently and have not been combat tested?
If there are parts of your system which you practice but do not understand, are there people around who do understand, whom you may ask?
Questions meant to be asked of yourselves, by yourselves.
Bumping around in the archives here,lit only by dim torchlight:-) I came upon a comment by GEM Sensei on a video showng students at Kanbum's Dojo in 1948 or so?Mattson Sensei I believe said they appeared to be practicing a different system.I wold love to know more about the differences in what they were doing and what is done today.Fascinates me.
2.Secondly I believe faith in a system must be based on sound understanding.
If one does drills one does not understand,somebody there had better understand them.If n one does, maybe it's time to ask soeone on Okinawa if they understand them, and if they don't either, ask the Chinese.If they have no clue, record the drills for later study and drop 'em in favor of something you do understand that works.
Havng faith in a technique you know will not, at this time, work for you, is not smart, IMHO.
3.Having satisfied yourselves of 1 and 2, have confidence in your techniques.Then they will be more effective than otherwise.
How do we know a technique will work?Well, number one, if you can make a heavy bag shake, rattle and roll, you havve a good indication of workable strikes and kicks.
If you can unbalance your training partner with every block you do, you have a good indication you will be able so to do in the street against a person possibly untrained in karate stancework.
If you can throw a resisting partner on a mat, and stop from being thrown:if you can lock and stop from being locked:if you can do this in the middle of a fast and furious drill done as though you both mean it, then, your techniques may be suitable for actual use.
If not, you will at least know what you need to work on.
John
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Rick Wilson
Faith, Reality, and the Martial Arts
Ahhh, a great thread. Just what is classical and traditional? Tony Blauer considers himself a traditional martial artist IF you consider that traditionally martial arts were created for self defense. And just how did those traditionalist train? Did they close their minds and just follow blindly? With their lives on the line -- I doubt it. I believe they looked deeply into exactly what they were doing and what it taught and whether or not they thought it would keep them alive.
John asks a fantastic question: "1. What parts of your system, exactly, are thousands/hundreds of years old, and have actually stood the test of time?" In Uechi only our kata might have been around for any length of time. Not the kumites or bunkai.
So if you want the classical approach, then view everything you do through the eyes of a warrior whose very life will be on the line by what and how they train.
Rick
John asks a fantastic question: "1. What parts of your system, exactly, are thousands/hundreds of years old, and have actually stood the test of time?" In Uechi only our kata might have been around for any length of time. Not the kumites or bunkai.
So if you want the classical approach, then view everything you do through the eyes of a warrior whose very life will be on the line by what and how they train.
Rick
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Gary Santaniello
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Faith, Reality, and the Martial Arts
Jake,
After 25 years i am still learning the depth of uechi-ryu. There are many movements and/or techniques that may be or appear to be useless. They may at some time come into a different light that become meaningful to you and they may not. I do not agree that we simply stop practicing what we don't understand or like because it appears not to be useful. (although it may be so) We study a system which consist of all of it's components not parts of it.
What techniques will work ? Faith ? If i may, what techniques appear to work in the dojo may not even be what you use when the time comes. Then again, they might. When a situation arises, there are so many variables to consider that a pre- concieved technique will not happen. One must react to the situation with "mushin" empty mindedness, meanning that you must "just respond" as it happends and the "faith" alone will not save you anymore than believing in Christ will stop a car from hitting you that you stepped in front of. However, i believe that you must have some confidence in your ability and some faith in what you practice.
A student once asked me, "how will i know if this stuff will really work"?
I replied, " you may never know. If and when the time comes, then you will find out." Until then, don't worry about it. Just keep trainning. There is more being gainned than learning how to defend yourself!
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Gary S.
After 25 years i am still learning the depth of uechi-ryu. There are many movements and/or techniques that may be or appear to be useless. They may at some time come into a different light that become meaningful to you and they may not. I do not agree that we simply stop practicing what we don't understand or like because it appears not to be useful. (although it may be so) We study a system which consist of all of it's components not parts of it.
What techniques will work ? Faith ? If i may, what techniques appear to work in the dojo may not even be what you use when the time comes. Then again, they might. When a situation arises, there are so many variables to consider that a pre- concieved technique will not happen. One must react to the situation with "mushin" empty mindedness, meanning that you must "just respond" as it happends and the "faith" alone will not save you anymore than believing in Christ will stop a car from hitting you that you stepped in front of. However, i believe that you must have some confidence in your ability and some faith in what you practice.
A student once asked me, "how will i know if this stuff will really work"?
I replied, " you may never know. If and when the time comes, then you will find out." Until then, don't worry about it. Just keep trainning. There is more being gainned than learning how to defend yourself!
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Gary S.
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Jake Steinmann
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Great thoughts, one and all.
Obviously, I think none of us would ever wish to actually have to test our techniques or our system in true combat...though we can try to get very close.
Nor am I planning to abandon my training.
Some additional thoughts
"Havng faith in a technique you know will not, at this time, work for you, is not smart, IMHO."
I agree...but does that mean you shouldn't practice it, or pass it on to your students? There are a number of techniques that some of my instructors do that I know I can't make work, yet they execute successfully. So, the logical solution (to me) is to practice the technique, under the assumption that some day, I will make it work for me.
"Fighting is a science and if the technique is not scientifically sound, I will never use it"
This was something that Mattson sensei talked about a little bit on Saturday, and what inspired me to start this thread. We often talk about how fighting is a science, but in truth, there is a limit to how scientific we can be. After, the true "scientific method" involves double-blind experiment with randomly selected test subjects under various conditions.
We never get those kind of experiments in the arts. To be sure, we can set up very realistic drills, like the Panic Attack, but they are in the end, drills, not reality. Even in drills like that, we are placing faith that the drill is giving us accurate feedback.
I'm not saying we should give up these drills, or that they don't work. Merely, that at some level, we are always placing faith in our system..whichever it happens to be.
More thoughts always welcome
Obviously, I think none of us would ever wish to actually have to test our techniques or our system in true combat...though we can try to get very close.
Nor am I planning to abandon my training.
Some additional thoughts
"Havng faith in a technique you know will not, at this time, work for you, is not smart, IMHO."
I agree...but does that mean you shouldn't practice it, or pass it on to your students? There are a number of techniques that some of my instructors do that I know I can't make work, yet they execute successfully. So, the logical solution (to me) is to practice the technique, under the assumption that some day, I will make it work for me.
"Fighting is a science and if the technique is not scientifically sound, I will never use it"
This was something that Mattson sensei talked about a little bit on Saturday, and what inspired me to start this thread. We often talk about how fighting is a science, but in truth, there is a limit to how scientific we can be. After, the true "scientific method" involves double-blind experiment with randomly selected test subjects under various conditions.
We never get those kind of experiments in the arts. To be sure, we can set up very realistic drills, like the Panic Attack, but they are in the end, drills, not reality. Even in drills like that, we are placing faith that the drill is giving us accurate feedback.
I'm not saying we should give up these drills, or that they don't work. Merely, that at some level, we are always placing faith in our system..whichever it happens to be.
More thoughts always welcome
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gmattson
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Unfortunately, I'm packing (or I should say Sue is packing and I'm supposed to be giving her the things I must take) for my trip tomorrow. Told her I had to check the web and lo and behold all these great topics. Wish I had more time, but had to respond to Jake's thread:
We had a great 'after class' bull session in which the topic was faith in one's system. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I was advocating pure faith! My favorite target in class are the teachers who teach and practice "ritual" karate. (simply performing movements in a robot fashion) My feeling is that we should retain the traditional but make the moves work for the real world.
At times it appears that Van and I are on opposite sides of a fence. Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply approach the subject in a different manner, but certainly agree with most of what he says.
Where we differ is in how we view the world. I get as much satisfaction from my Uechi-ryu working on stress reduction, building confidence in real world business encounters and health benefits. (not to mention honing my golf swing) as I do from the self defense benefits. I believe most people don't take the martial arts to become monster pitbulls, able to rip arms off someone who looks crosseyed at you.
Realistically, out of the many thousands of students that I've worked with since 1958, only a few have the mindset, focus, attitude and ability to become super karate warriors. Chances are most of these individuals would have possessed these talents even if they had never met me or taken one lesson in karate.
Ralph Hallet (sp) worked as a bouncer in his father's bar in Halafax. He was a boxer before he ever did karate. He had a reputation as a tough guy and every night a new group of toughs visited the bar to challenge Ralph. He would simply crush their faces with a single punch, sending them to the hospital and leaving his father to deal with the lawyers who showed up the next day. According to Ralph, he didn't use karate... he "simply punched them out!".
Many of those who visited Ralph were full contact fighters, martial artist and experienced street fighters. They all thought they had the "secret power". The one thing each of them learned is that eventually, you will be faced with someone who is a better fighter than you.
As teachers, we must be careful how we present what we are doing. Reading some of the posts I get the feeling that we are encouraging our readers the next time they encounter a person who bumps into them, says something distastful, looks as though they might be a threat, to rip out his throat before he (might) stick a knife into your belly!
I like Van's 'in your face', factual and scientific presentation of the cold realities that one might be faced with in life. But I would also encourage others to offer the same challenges to a 'study' they would if the subject was 'chi'.
I remember a powerful post by Roy Bedard on the benefits of kata that seemed to offset some of the scientific findings relating to stress, breathing etc. I think more time and studies should be devoted to the positive benefits of the traditional training, working more on the correct way kata should be done, instead of simply knocking the heart of what traditionalist do.
I wish I had more time to work on this, but Sue is calling. See you in a week.
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GEM
We had a great 'after class' bull session in which the topic was faith in one's system. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I was advocating pure faith! My favorite target in class are the teachers who teach and practice "ritual" karate. (simply performing movements in a robot fashion) My feeling is that we should retain the traditional but make the moves work for the real world.
At times it appears that Van and I are on opposite sides of a fence. Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply approach the subject in a different manner, but certainly agree with most of what he says.
Where we differ is in how we view the world. I get as much satisfaction from my Uechi-ryu working on stress reduction, building confidence in real world business encounters and health benefits. (not to mention honing my golf swing) as I do from the self defense benefits. I believe most people don't take the martial arts to become monster pitbulls, able to rip arms off someone who looks crosseyed at you.
Realistically, out of the many thousands of students that I've worked with since 1958, only a few have the mindset, focus, attitude and ability to become super karate warriors. Chances are most of these individuals would have possessed these talents even if they had never met me or taken one lesson in karate.
Ralph Hallet (sp) worked as a bouncer in his father's bar in Halafax. He was a boxer before he ever did karate. He had a reputation as a tough guy and every night a new group of toughs visited the bar to challenge Ralph. He would simply crush their faces with a single punch, sending them to the hospital and leaving his father to deal with the lawyers who showed up the next day. According to Ralph, he didn't use karate... he "simply punched them out!".
Many of those who visited Ralph were full contact fighters, martial artist and experienced street fighters. They all thought they had the "secret power". The one thing each of them learned is that eventually, you will be faced with someone who is a better fighter than you.
As teachers, we must be careful how we present what we are doing. Reading some of the posts I get the feeling that we are encouraging our readers the next time they encounter a person who bumps into them, says something distastful, looks as though they might be a threat, to rip out his throat before he (might) stick a knife into your belly!
I like Van's 'in your face', factual and scientific presentation of the cold realities that one might be faced with in life. But I would also encourage others to offer the same challenges to a 'study' they would if the subject was 'chi'.
I remember a powerful post by Roy Bedard on the benefits of kata that seemed to offset some of the scientific findings relating to stress, breathing etc. I think more time and studies should be devoted to the positive benefits of the traditional training, working more on the correct way kata should be done, instead of simply knocking the heart of what traditionalist do.
I wish I had more time to work on this, but Sue is calling. See you in a week.
------------------
GEM
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Jake Steinmann
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Sensei Mattson,
My understanding was not that you were advocating pure faith in a system. As I think we have all managed to agree so far, pure faith is a very dangerous thing. There is no sense in blindy following a system to our own destruction.
At the same time, there's a point at which we just have to accept that something will work without testing it. I can only assume, based on everything I know about anatomy, my ability to generate power, ect.. that a Bushiken (sp?) to the throat will severly injure or kill someone. The alternative is to go around hitting 100 random test subjects with a Bushiken, and seeing how many have their throats crushed, ect...
I guess my thought/concern/whatever that prompted me to start this thread was this: Almost any technique can have a logical explanation attached to it (I've heard very logical explanations for the most illogical techniques). So what happens when the logic is untestable? If someone tells you that he can kill you with his mystic chi death touch, do you let him hit you with it, to see if he's right? How do you evaluate these sort of untestable claims?
My understanding was not that you were advocating pure faith in a system. As I think we have all managed to agree so far, pure faith is a very dangerous thing. There is no sense in blindy following a system to our own destruction.
At the same time, there's a point at which we just have to accept that something will work without testing it. I can only assume, based on everything I know about anatomy, my ability to generate power, ect.. that a Bushiken (sp?) to the throat will severly injure or kill someone. The alternative is to go around hitting 100 random test subjects with a Bushiken, and seeing how many have their throats crushed, ect...
I guess my thought/concern/whatever that prompted me to start this thread was this: Almost any technique can have a logical explanation attached to it (I've heard very logical explanations for the most illogical techniques). So what happens when the logic is untestable? If someone tells you that he can kill you with his mystic chi death touch, do you let him hit you with it, to see if he's right? How do you evaluate these sort of untestable claims?
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Bill Glasheen
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Faith, Reality, and the Martial Arts
Jake
Interesting discussion, and good inputs from the gallery.
I personally feel that the development of good fighting skills requires application of a lot of skills and virtues.
* It's important to start with the sniff test; we shouldn't be engaging in methods that appear absurd on the surface.
* It's important to be open minded and give training a chance. Very often things aren't useful until worked with for a long time. Very often things don't appear useful until the right situation, right interpretation, or right stage of life presents itself.
* It's important to enjoy the training. It's the process that gets us to the end, not an obsession with the end. Many skills worth having take a very long time to develop. If it isn't fun, you won't do what it takes to acquire that ability.
* It's important to personalize the training. Going to fight in the UFC? Then learn the rules (yes, there are rules) and learn a fighting method which is optimal for that venue. Going to be security for a hospital or mental institution? Then learn restraint techniques appropriate for that venue. Going to Hollywood? Then listen to Bruce Lee (had to tease my good friend Raffi). Going to war? Train with a veteran. Want to be kicking (literally) when you are in your 80s? Listen to the old masters.
I also believe that fighting is part science and part art. It involves both proven principles and the way we apply those principles.
Just some random thoughts that may be helpful.
- Bill
Interesting discussion, and good inputs from the gallery.
I personally feel that the development of good fighting skills requires application of a lot of skills and virtues.
* It's important to start with the sniff test; we shouldn't be engaging in methods that appear absurd on the surface.
* It's important to be open minded and give training a chance. Very often things aren't useful until worked with for a long time. Very often things don't appear useful until the right situation, right interpretation, or right stage of life presents itself.
* It's important to enjoy the training. It's the process that gets us to the end, not an obsession with the end. Many skills worth having take a very long time to develop. If it isn't fun, you won't do what it takes to acquire that ability.
* It's important to personalize the training. Going to fight in the UFC? Then learn the rules (yes, there are rules) and learn a fighting method which is optimal for that venue. Going to be security for a hospital or mental institution? Then learn restraint techniques appropriate for that venue. Going to Hollywood? Then listen to Bruce Lee (had to tease my good friend Raffi). Going to war? Train with a veteran. Want to be kicking (literally) when you are in your 80s? Listen to the old masters.
I also believe that fighting is part science and part art. It involves both proven principles and the way we apply those principles.
Just some random thoughts that may be helpful.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Faith, Reality, and the Martial Arts
I'm no common streetfighter, and I don't play one on TV. But I have had a few encounters as an adult. I'm here to talk about them.
I attribute my success to not making any special effort to think about what I should do, or whether or not something would work. In each and every case, something inside took over and I felt almost like an observer to what was going on. Frankly things happened so fast that it was only later on that I analyzed what the heck I did. And it didn't try to be a hero or to be especially fancy. It didn't use "martial arts techniques" per se. It just did what was necessary.
I am grateful to it.
A long time ago, I talked to Jimmy Malone about this. What he basically said was that this is part gift, and part training.
- Bill
I attribute my success to not making any special effort to think about what I should do, or whether or not something would work. In each and every case, something inside took over and I felt almost like an observer to what was going on. Frankly things happened so fast that it was only later on that I analyzed what the heck I did. And it didn't try to be a hero or to be especially fancy. It didn't use "martial arts techniques" per se. It just did what was necessary.
I am grateful to it.
A long time ago, I talked to Jimmy Malone about this. What he basically said was that this is part gift, and part training.
- Bill
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Jake Steinmann
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Mr. Glasheen - Your thoughts, while possibly random, are certainly helpful. As are the good doctors.
I agree, training must be personalized to meet the needs of the trainee, or else it will not be worth the time and effort. Similarly, I cannot argue that there are certain skills that it takes years to develop properly (it took me two years to be able to throw a good left hook...).
J.D. says "Does any of this work? In life there are no quarantees". Of course not...if I were interested in guarantees, I would look into one of the thousands of supposedly "invincible" systems that are advertised in martial arts magazines each month. Now those...those rely on pure, blind faith to get you to invest in them.
I would submit, one more thought. There are times when the difference between a successfully executed technique and a failed one will be based on a persons faith/belief/confidence in their technique. I'm sure we've all had the experience of trying to use a technique, all the while thinking "this will never work". Not surprisingly, it usually doesn't.
More random thoughts from Syracuse.
I agree, training must be personalized to meet the needs of the trainee, or else it will not be worth the time and effort. Similarly, I cannot argue that there are certain skills that it takes years to develop properly (it took me two years to be able to throw a good left hook...).
J.D. says "Does any of this work? In life there are no quarantees". Of course not...if I were interested in guarantees, I would look into one of the thousands of supposedly "invincible" systems that are advertised in martial arts magazines each month. Now those...those rely on pure, blind faith to get you to invest in them.
I would submit, one more thought. There are times when the difference between a successfully executed technique and a failed one will be based on a persons faith/belief/confidence in their technique. I'm sure we've all had the experience of trying to use a technique, all the while thinking "this will never work". Not surprisingly, it usually doesn't.
More random thoughts from Syracuse.
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Jake Steinmann
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Glasheen-Sensei,
I think I have run into IT once or twice in my training or life...usually one of those moments that I look at afterwords and think "how the heck did I do that? I CAN'T do that?"--despite evidence to the contrary.
The Good Doctor says (I'm just not capable of finding a witty rhyme right now...) "This is a very good point often made clear in sparing. For me, and quite a few I have observed, mindset makes or breaks. I use sparing to break from the self-defeating thinking: "
Nothing could be more true. I learned (again) that same lesson just these past few days, when I realize that a large part of the reason that my Sifu was able to beat me around the kwoon like a rag-doll was because I was going out to spar him, I was trying to show him how good I was, instead of just doing what I needed to do. Everytime something failed me, I felt at though I was a failure as a student.
Then, at some point, I realized (Yes, I'm slow on the uptake...) that there was no way I was going to match a man with 28 years of experience perfectly, and decided to just do whatever I felt like. If he wasn't impressed, or thought it was wrong...too bad. I'd deal with it later.
Suddenly, my sparring got a whole lot better.
So, once again, I've learned the same lesson. Mindset is everything.
I can be taught...sometimes, it just takes a while.
I think I have run into IT once or twice in my training or life...usually one of those moments that I look at afterwords and think "how the heck did I do that? I CAN'T do that?"--despite evidence to the contrary.
The Good Doctor says (I'm just not capable of finding a witty rhyme right now...) "This is a very good point often made clear in sparing. For me, and quite a few I have observed, mindset makes or breaks. I use sparing to break from the self-defeating thinking: "
Nothing could be more true. I learned (again) that same lesson just these past few days, when I realize that a large part of the reason that my Sifu was able to beat me around the kwoon like a rag-doll was because I was going out to spar him, I was trying to show him how good I was, instead of just doing what I needed to do. Everytime something failed me, I felt at though I was a failure as a student.
Then, at some point, I realized (Yes, I'm slow on the uptake...) that there was no way I was going to match a man with 28 years of experience perfectly, and decided to just do whatever I felt like. If he wasn't impressed, or thought it was wrong...too bad. I'd deal with it later.
Suddenly, my sparring got a whole lot better.
So, once again, I've learned the same lesson. Mindset is everything.
I can be taught...sometimes, it just takes a while.
