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Brian
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sword arts

Post by Brian »

Anybody here involved in or interested in Japanese sword arts(Kendo/jutsu,Iai/Batto/do/jutsu)?

Brian
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Brian

Bobby Campbell taught basic iaido at a camp years back; it was a highlight to me that year.

One of our kenukai bretheren (John Ray from Texas I believe) taught some very fine seminars at a later camp. Good stuff.

I like to pull my katana out now and then to practice. I'm no expert; I just appreciate the precision of the art.

My first Uechi instructor (the late Rad Smith) collected katana. Yes, he was a Harvard MBA grad and made money at Teradyne, but he also made enough from buying and selling swords to retire young. Good thing - he died at a very young age from ideopathic lung cancer. He got a chance to spend time with his growing kids before the unexpected event. Rena Koopman - wife of Rad Smith and dear friend of mine - collects tsuba (the sword guards). This fits in well with her career as a prominent artist with precious metals. She's still making great things in her Newton, MA studio.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-05-99).]
Brian
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sword arts

Post by Brian »

Bill,
Yes, I had heard that Ray Sensei had taught at camp a couple of years ago. He is very highly regarded in the Iaido community.
Although I have been studying Iaido for a number of years, I am relatively new to Uechi Ryu(1 1/2 years) and am interested in finding other Uechika with similar interests.
I wasn't aware that Campbell Sensei does Iaido.
I am also looking for people in my area(NH) that might be interested in learning Iaido,and starting a class.

JD,
I would like to hear about your sword(katana),antique, I presume? I have a 300+ year old Settsu Kunisuke. It's a little bit too short for me, but has a beautiful hamon.

I also have several antique tsuba. What kind of practice do both of you do with katana?

Regards,
Brian
T Rose
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Post by T Rose »

good website

www.gemlink.com/~rstein/nihonto.htm

Edited by the moderator to add link feature

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-07-99).]
Brian
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Post by Brian »

Bill,
Yes, it's very true that you must begin slowly, especially if you are using a live blade. However, the way that JD described Iaido(slow motion draw from a seated position)couldn't be further from the truth. At the beginning level techniques, we are taught to begin the draw slowly, then accelerate smoothly. At the more advanced levels, the draw becomes almost instantaneous. Also, the overall speed of the draw is not really that important, the real action occurs from the point that the kensen(point)is about to leave the scabbard. It's very much like trying to apply Karate kata-sometimes you have to move fast, sometimes you have to wait. There are constant, deliberate changes in both speed and timing.
As far as the seated position goes, our ryu actually uses two different ones. Moving in and out of these postions, sometimes from sitting to standing and back again, does incredible things for you legs and hips. Also,like you said, it also teaches you a lot about moving your center. That's why you begin with seated techniques, but out of 67 kata that we have(they are not like Karate Kata, they are much shorter) only about half(34) begin from a seated position.
I also agree with you about not training for the exact way you should do something in a situation. I believe that kata are to provide our bodies and minds with certain skills that should come together to create the appropriate reaction to a situation.
So you also do Aikido? My primary Iaido Sensei(the late Paul Sylvain) also taught Aikido.

JD,
As I staed above, your assessment of what Iaido "is" couldn't be more inaccurate. Because the primary focus of training is not immediate effectiveness does not mean that the techniques are unsound and not effective. But because we don't need the skills NOW, we can take our time refining them, and arriving at the same end as Iaijutsu. Be careful of the labels, there's relly very little difference when it comes down to it. Except for a couple of very gifted individuals(do and jutsu),it can really only be done so fast. I think the best way to sum it up is that Iaijutsu is PART of Iaido. And yes, there are plenty of Iaido people who do not know how to cut anything, but there are also plenty of Iaijutsu people that do not, and just as many of both that do. There are also plenty of Karate people that don't know how to really hit something, and some that couldn't use their art in a real situation to save their lives.

Regards,
Brian
The Editor
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Post by The Editor »

Gentleman:

Despite our best and sternest efforts to achieve "redirection," our subject continues to revert to the manner and grace of a hyperglycemic three-year-old informed he can no longer play with the toilet when confronted with contradiction. We apologize for the mess.

With appropriate sympathy, application of the cattle prod, and compassion we "teased out" his concerns.

We cannot vouch for the coherence; he provided his responses in finger-paint.

<U>Misrepresentation of Iaido:</U>

Our subject presented his opinion based upon the observation of practitioners from a few groups. He received these opinions concerning the art from practitioners. While he has argued in the past that one cannot judge an entire style or art by "one dojo" or even "one group," this has been his experience, limited as he conceeded it as a "dabbler."

<U>A Rose by Anyother Name</U>:

He expressed some satisfaction--at least that is what flinging red paint against the expensively padded wall whilst imitating Winston Churchill crooning "Paranoia" has traditionally implied--that one of you have accepted his opinion that "name" does not necessarily imply "style." Indeed, anyone can brandish a katana and proclaim himself a swordsman. Aikido has suffered some treatment in this vent on these forums. Some groups teach a passive version that would, frankly, upset practitioners from other dojos.

He expresses great satisfaction--as demonstrated by the squeaking noise whilst jumping on his left foot--that one of you has apparently found training in a more realistic version than he has encountered. He expresses interested to know more should we ever allow him access to sharp instruments which, given his current status, is not bloody likely.

<U>Slow Means Fast</U>:

We would, painful as it is, agree that the other has treated one of our subjects few valid opinions with a most irresponsible misattention to detail. That he has served as the efficient causality and motiveless malignancy behind many therapeutic set-backs with his references to a one Uma Thurmond in nurses uniform and his own prediliction to wearing women's leather vests, leaves us not at all surprised.

At no time to our recollection has the subject advocated a contempt for slow and precise training, particularly as the foundation for proper performance. He does understand the individual's expertise in slow and soft performance.

We thank you for your patience and concern.

--Ed.
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Greg
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Post by Greg »

Brian,

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I wanted to reply to some of your points made while taking J.D. to task (not that that is not an honorable pursuit, belonging to a long tradition of its own...) Image

If you have not had the opportunity, I would refer you to Donn Draeger's excellent works Classical Bujutsu and Classical Budo. In the Chapter Six of Classical Budo Draeger Sensei (who, it is safe to say, was quite familiar with both Iaijutsu and Iaido) highlights the differences between the two.

To summarize, he discusses the fact that the purpose of the two arts is inherently different. Iaijutsu's goal is to cut as quickly and efficiently as possible. Iaido, on the other hand was developed by ..."visionaries [who] were responsible for employing the sword as a spritual instrument, using it in a manner distinctly different from that of iaijutsu..." (Classical Budo, page 85). Draeger elaborates on this point, writing about several of the aspects of iaido that were integrated into the various ryu (he discusses primarily Muso Shinden) which are combatively ineffective or unrealistic.

The idea that "...Iaijutsu is PART of Iaido" is historically inaccurate. Perhaps you are using a definition of iaijutsu different from mine (and Draeger's). Further, by definition, any exponents of classical ryu (which include iaijutsu) know how to cut. A essential component of iaijutsu practice is tameshigiri or test cutting.

I have seen iaido which is fast and beautiful, and I would not want to be cut by that sword. The practice of iaido has a great deal to recommend it, and I would disagree with your implication, J.D. about the inability of iaido to 'cultivate the spirit' - that is in part why iaido practitioners study their art.

I have also seen iaijutsu - it is not always beautiful (at least, to a casual observer) - but it is always effective.

greg
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Brian

I keep my practice simple. Bobby taught half a dozen sword draws from seiza. I do them because moving as such teaches a lot about proper movement in general. You cannot go from seiza to sword cut without moving the center. And you learn how to make the movement of your center to cause the cut.

I do not disagree with practicing slowly. If you train with a real katana, practicing slowly ensures that you will still be practicing after your first year - with all your fingers. Like a gun, a real katana is not to be trifled with. You are more likely to hurt yourself than hurt your opponent until you really know what you are doing. Good! I find the realists' arguments about how you'll do the same under stress as you do when you practice to be pretty weak. I sleep 6 or 7 hours every day. Last time I was in a fight, I had no automatic sleep function kicking in. I remember after I had my knee operation (1974) that I spent months doing slow-motion side kicks (yoko geri). I did it as therapy. I had never successfully pulled off a yoko geri in a sparring match before then. First time I sparred after surgery, I came charging with a hand flurry and next thing I knew, my foot just automatically came forward - full speed - with a yoko geri in my opponent's gut. Surprised the hell out of me! I did not make a conscious decision to do it. It was the first fast kick I had done with that leg for 4 months (and it hurt like *&$%#). I do not claim to fully understand how such things work - I just know they do.

As for Bobby Campbell and iaido, what hasn't Bobby done? He does well at all things martial. Bobby's so good, even he doesn't understand (and can explain) how he does some things. I believe he received his instruction while in the Phillipines. Then the Marcos family was overthrown. On to Singapore!

Personally iaido is relegated to a place in my life where it is an occasional means to an end. I do better karate and aikido when I pull the sword out on rare occasion. I do better Phillipine knife and Okinawan kobudo when I do a few cuts each year with a katana. I'm no expert, but I like it and appreciate it.

- Bill
Brian
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Post by Brian »

Greg,
I think you need to be careful to not take Draegers books too seriously. They are an excellent resource, and a great place to start when researching trad. Japanese MA. The problem with them is that he tried to fit all arts into very 'black and white' categories. This was fine in the 70's, when very little was known in the west about koryu budo and bujutsu, and his writings were about the only thing availible in English. These are my opinions, of course, but they seem to be shared by most involved in these arts today. Another problem is that he sometimes contrdicts himself. The part you refer to about Muso Shinden Ryu I am very familiar with. I think it refers to "combatively innane mannerisms that greatly reduced it's effectiveness on the battlefield". First of all, Iai was not a battlefield art. There was no use for a quick draw method on the field. If you didn't already have your sword out by the time you engaged your opponent, you would be toast. Iai was developed by the warrior class for use in everyday life. Because they were required to wear the two swords, they had to have methods of using them and bringing them into play. The second problem with the above statement is that after he explains what the problems are with MSR(and I do understand why he says these things, they were definitly modifications in the art,but there are valid reasons), he goes on to praise Mugai Ryu, which is guilty of the same "combatively innane mannerisms."
As far as Iaido and Iaijutsu having two different goals to training, I will not argue with that, and if you refer back to my post to JD you will see that I even mention that.
As for my statement about "Iaijutsu is PART of Iaido" being historically inaccurate, the problem here is that you are trying do use definitions. Muso Shinden Ryu(and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu-they are really just two branches of the same tradition) were developed from Hayashizaki Muso Ryu Iaijutsu. The teachings were added to over the generations, and some of the original teachings survive as the Okuden(lit-'secret teachings',advanced level of instruction). Hasegawa Eishin(I think he was the 7th headmaster)developed the methods from the Tate Hiza posture. These survive as the Chuden ('middle teachings', intermediate level). Later, during the Edo period, Omori developed the techniques from Seiza, known as Omori Ryu. This is our Shoden('first teachings',beginner level). Some of the chuden kata and the Okuden kata are definitely Iaijutsu. In addition, In our organization, we supplement this with the Iaijutsu of Shinto Munen Ryu. So historically, Iaijutsu is PART of Iaido. It's just not the part you get to see when you observe an Iaido demonstration.
As for Iaijutsu by definition means that it's exponents know how to cut, again, this is part of Draeger's black and white. It's really not true. True, most ryu that teach Iaijutsu probably advocate practice cutting, most do not require it. My own Iaido Sensei, Paul Sylvain and Mitsuzuka Takeshi, both encourage it, as do many other Iaido teachers.
Another thing that is important to understand is that historically, Iaijutsu was not an art that was taught independantly. It was a component of a larger curriculum that would at least include Kenjutsu, and possibly several other weapons as well.
Don't get me wrong, I have (and love) many of Draeger's books. You just have to put it all in context when you read it. I think he was trying to make it understandable to lay people in the west, by forcing everything into neat little categories that we require.
Koryu Budo and Bujutsu are really one big grey area. BTW, by his definitions, MSR and MJER are Koryu Budo, Seitei Iaido(the forms standardized by the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei and Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei) is Gendai Budo.
For an excellent history of Iai, read Draeger and Warner's 'Japanese Swordsmanship'.

Regards,
Brian
david
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Post by david »

Brian,

Don't know how far up you are in NH and you probably already know this -- Kanai sensei teaches iaido at the New England Aikikai on Thursday nights and Saturday mornings.

I believe he is an exponent of Muso Shinden Ryu but you would likley know more accurately as a student of the late Paul Sylvain sensei.

david
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Editor

In reference to the moniker "Uncle Van" ... Given Van's example of deep loyalty, his Sicilian traditions, and his warrior mindset, I'd call him "family" any day.

Any room in the "family" for a Mic, Van-san?

- Bill
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