For You Doctors

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 9:59 pm

Collin

How you doing, buddy? You want us to send over a scantily-clad, buxom nurse with breathy voice bearing chicken soup? Tried that with J.D. once, but it had nasty side effects.

Tim

Where was I? ... Oh yea! You wrote? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

is it possible to control breathing in the heat of battle? Can the breathing be internalized and become second nature, not somthing with is turned of and on consciously before and after kata or a match.

That is indeed the question that Van poses. That's the top of the mountain. We're all trying to build paths to that peak on the top of the mountain. Some will make it, some will get lost. And two people may make it there with entirely different paths.

I believe performance under stress is part natural ability, part training, and part experience. Did you watch the Miami game Sunday? A young buck of a quarterback had Marino on the ropes all game long. Somehow, Danny boy threw a touchdown pass in the fourth quarter with seconds to go that won the game. Nobody performs in the fourth quarter like Dan Marino; statistics show it. Nobody does better with the ball for a final shot like Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson. These are gifted athletes that trained hard all their lives. They each had their methods of training. They all want the ball on the final play when the adrenaline is overflowing for most (but not all) people.

"The method" to get there will be debated from now to eternity. When the boogeyman jumps out of the bushes, some will respond and some will micturate their britches. And some will do both; that works. Multiple factors, and a little chance, dictates who will put it all together and who will not.

I have my beliefs and my own methods. I may change them over time if evidence dictates other methods work better.

You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Can you give concrete examples [of how you integrate breathing and technique?]

I'll give a few.

* Pause in your breathing to do a really fast wauke/hammerhand/wauke/boshiken in seisan kata.

* Kiai when you do the forward elbow thrust (picture breaking ribs or sternum) in seisan.

* Breathe when you grab (with shokens), lift, and move the person in seisan.

* In swimming....breathe only when your head is above water, and inbetween strokes (Duh!)

* In weight training...breathe out (with some resistance) when you squat or bench press. Yell when doing your max.

* When firing a gun at a target...take a breath, hold the breath, gently squeeze the trigger.

* When cutting with a knife...you can decouple the breath from the movement. The knife does all the work when you slash; you just need to move properly. This decoupling affords multiple slashes in the blink of an eye.

Just a few examples.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Oct 11, 1999 10:25 pm

Van

Just saw your post as mine went up. I believe I partially responded.

* I believe you when you talk about degraded performance under very severe stress.

* I believe that different trained people have differing abilities to control the sympathetic nervous system response in a life-or-death situation. Some is natural ability, some is training, some is experience.

* I believe that some methods help you a bit on this control. Sanchin training does indeed teach us to control the autonomic nervous system to some degree. It's the "walking meditation" thing. Some get better at it than others.

* I believe that if you do something, you are less likely to fall to the negative consequences of stress than if you do nothing. I believe I quoted you part of my dissertation research which shows the paradoxical effect of exercise on dogs that had a drug-induced sympathetic state. I know that I feel better if I have done something (ANYTHING) in a confrontation than if I have done nothing. In the latter situation, I'm all shakes and am angry for hours afterwards. That chemical cocktail response is there for a reason - it is NOT a dysfunctional response. It is genetically selected for after generations of evolution of our species. It's there to power us in a reaction to a very, very bad situation. It's overdrive. Best to put the car in gear or you mess up the engine (wet your britches). Under such conditions, I belive I could make my shoken work pretty well (or wouldn't care if I broke it).

Just my thoughts and experience.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 1999 5:36 am

Van

Good questions and good points. I'll address what I can, and leave the floor open for others to contribute.

Yes, Mark did indeed succinctly state Uechi Kanei's philosophy of breathing. I believe it follows two basic principles: 1) don't breathe during the techniques, and 2) breathe when you need a breath.

Check out Uechiyu Karate Do by George E. Mattson. On page 87, there is a section titled UECHI-RYU BREATHING. George speaks of interviews he had with Uechi Kanei on the subject. Unlike others, he even taped a microphone to Uechi Kanei to see how he acutally breathed (Mattson, and Earle, 1965). Can't get better data than that! Here are a few quotes.

Uechi Kanei sez <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

When you exhaust your complete breath, a weak spot occurs, which should not exist in Karate. Keep your breathing circular so that at no time will you be weak. That way you can perform at any moment.

Can you see how people can really overinterpret that quote? No, it doesn't mean that you have this huge weak spot in your breath. It just means you shouldn't do deep breathing when doing karate. No deep inhales, no lung-clearing exhales. A little common sense and physiology will explain why the solar plexus reflex is a little more sensitive when you completely exhale. You want a shallow tidal volume. Now, how much more "vulnerable" are you at functional residual capacity (low point of the "karate breath") as opposed to the residual volume (complete exhale)? Good question. Let's line the students up and whack em in the stomachs. Randomized trials, at various levels between the two states. But we will do repeat measurements on the ones that talk back to us ;-)

Another quote from Uechi Kanei: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

It is best not to be concerned with breathing, as the natural way is the best and correct way. At first, when the student is just learning, his body muscles are relaxed and the question of breathing never comes up. When he enters the phase of his training where he strongly focuses his muscles, if he doesn't worry about his breathing, all of his energies, both physical and mental, are concentrated on the tension, speed, and power of the movements. The teacher occasionally touches the student's side or stomach while the teacher is either in front of him or behind him. Because of the tension that is required for the Kata, the student's muscles will not allow him to take a deep breath, and what breathing is done is mostly up and down rather than in and out, without outward signs of breathing. It is also natural to hold one's breath during periods of strain, and then to release it in a burst afterwards.

At the endo of this chapter, George comes to the same general conclusion as was stated by Brelsford earlier (his recounting of Uechi sensei's words). Read for yourself (page 89).

As for various breathing "methods" that are applied in the class, whether by Uechi or Goju teachers, they are nothing more than that. Training methods. Period. In the words of the Chinese, do not confuse the moon for the finger that points to it. It's like doing knuckle pushups. George taught me a "method" years back. I kind of like it (and I'm not just kissing butt - George can attest to that). His method teaches the confused student how to do what Uechi Kanei preaches. It also serves to help put a person into mushin (because of the regularity of the breathing). But once the student gets the idea, (s)he is supposed to remove the training wheels and breathe quietly and as needed. No two kata should look alike for the advanced practitioner.

Van Canna wrote <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

why does a master like Nakahodo-sensei explode his shokens and his kata in general like hand grenades? How about the explosive kata of Shinjio-sensei or Nakamatsu-sensei?

I have several answers:

1) Have you seen Nakahodo-sensei's forearms? I have personally witnessed him doing pushups on his shokens.

2) I have also witnessed several board-breaking demonstrations from Okinawa. I have several on film. All the successful board breaks I've seen are with seiken fist. I have a few films of Okinawans breaking their fingers (rather than the board) trying to demonstrate a board break with a nukite. That's like trying to use a scalpel as a pick axe.

3) Once upon a time, a very famous Okinawan master (name withheld for dignity purpose) was conversing with Thompson sensei, and another person witnessed the conversation. This Okinawan Uechi master said "Do you really think you could use a shoken as a full-force thrust?" Jim just looked at this fellow in his usual, quiet, humble way, and calmly said "Yea."

Most folks - even a few Okinawan greats - can't shoken their way out of a wet paper bag. If you don't spend a lifetime on The Big Three (tm), it's too easy to skip the work needed to do these as explosive thrusting techniques. Best to use them as special-purpose weapons. Campbell sensei has taught some very nice classes on this, and it comes from his White Eyebrow system experience.

And...the shoken and other such weapons are as much grab as they are pointed weapon. Many only see the yang when there is also yin.

Good questions and a good topic, Van san.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-11-99).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 1999 2:50 pm

Van san

Please understand that you have raised as many good questions in my head as I feel I have answered to you. They are sitting there, waiting to digest with all my other beliefs and general knowledge.

In particular, I really like your challenge to all of us about that special state of mind that makes us behave in a fashion most of us are unfamiliar with. I agree with you that all our preciously-held beliefs are challenged by what few of us ever experience. We cannot easily test our ideas without throwing a few Uechika to the lions and see who comes out. Hard to find a Human Investigation Committee to approve such experiments! So we are left to theorize and spout out our expert opinions based on piecemeal data and first-principles knowledge. Not very satisfying indeed!

I too wait for any comments from Evan.

One of my good western-minded kyusho buddies is a medical practitioner and regularly applies his skills while handling unruly mental patients. It's one thing to be in an empowered position and boink someone here and there to get them in their room and off of Mrs. Jones. When in control like this, it's easy to apply theory and complex applications. It's another thing altogether to face a situation similar to what happened to Clarence. While I have been harrassed by what my father calls "chicken theives" in my life (armed but not necessarily dangerous), I've never fought in a war and never looked at the barrel end of a gun. I've been cursed at and challenged by a man high on cocaine, but have avoided the direct confrontation that would bring everything to the next level. Don't get me wrong, I take pride in these outcomes. But many questions remain unanswered to me, as they do for many. And so we press on.

And you are wise to press us all for better answers.

In particular, I like your thoughts and comments about open-handed techniques and instincts while in the supercharged state.

- Bill

Collin Warder · Post by **Collin Warder** » Tue Oct 12, 1999 10:24 pm

I just thought I'd make one more comment for those psychological buffs out there. Having a dural tear patched is one the oddest mind trips I could imagine. As we live our lives we become used to the step-down process of healing a debilitating ailment. Think of the time it takes to fully recover from a nasty flu. When a CSF leak is stopped, a person experiences FULL recovery in minutes (15 or so). I am talking about going from total body agony to normal state in no time at all. The doctors couldn't understand why I was laughing after they fixed me up

Bill, I had one of those nurses, nix the breathy and buxom part, and substitute the chicken soup with that rancid canned orange juice.

-Collin

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Oct 13, 1999 4:38 am

Bill,

Good conversation here!

More of interest:

People have a tendency to freeze up when facing danger because as our ancestors were prey to stronger and larger animals, they knew that the predators detected movement better than they detected shape! Instinct is a very powerful force!

“ Related to protective stillness, breathing patterns alter under any stressful condition. Anger can cause a person to forget to breathe in; sorrow and fear can cause a person to forget to breathe out. Either of these disruptions in breathing during physical combat can make you winded and sap your strength and energy when you need it the most! In Extreme cases you can even become unconscious”

The solution offered by experts and by top martial artists, is that by “shouting” each time you strike [kiai], it will be impossible to hold your breath resulting in oxygen reaching your depleted lungs [that is why people in fights report that their lungs seemed to be on fire]!

Also the shouting will propel you into action, it will frighten and tense up the attacker, surprising him and slowing down his reaction time by as much as a second; and it will enhance your strength by psychological focus and it tightens your chest so that you are better able to absorb a blow there!

References: Matt Thomas --- model mugging!

------------------
Van Canna

Collin Warder · Post by **Collin Warder** » Wed Oct 13, 1999 5:04 am

Medieval Magic I say! I had the patch done yesterday and ahhhh...relief. Unfortunately, pushing 28cc's of blood against my spine was one of the most excrutiating pains I have ever experienced. Too bad the Versed didn't take effect.

Funny though, I spoke with the Nurse Anethsisist and he told me they used a 25 gauge needle for the epidural last week. You would think any tear that would cause would be so small that it would easily self-correct. Oh well, back in action.

-Collin

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Oct 13, 1999 4:41 pm

Collin

Too bad about the nurse and the O.J. Glad you're on your way to recovery. Feel free to comment more in other posts.

Van (et al)

Now this is getting very interesting. I see where you are going.

I'm going to close this thread and restart with Van's previous post (due to the length and this separate thread).

- Bill