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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I'm starting this thread with a post from a previous thread. Once you get beyond 25 posts (and get into several conversations), it gets a bit unwieldy for the user to download and follow.

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Bill,
Good conversation here!

More of interest:

People have a tendency to freeze up when facing danger because as our ancestors were prey to stronger and larger animals, they knew that the predators detected movement better than they detected shape! Instinct is a very powerful force!

“ Related to protective stillness, breathing patterns alter under any stressful condition. Anger can cause a person to forget to breathe in; sorrow and fear can cause a person to forget to breathe out. Either of these disruptions in breathing during physical combat can make you winded and sap your strength and energy when you need it the most! In Extreme cases you can even become unconscious”

The solution offered by experts and by top martial artists, is that by “shouting” each time you strike [kiai], it will be impossible to hold your breath resulting in oxygen reaching your depleted lungs [that is why people in fights report that their lungs seemed to be on fire]!

Also the shouting will propel you into action, it will frighten and tense up the attacker, surprising him and slowing down his reaction time by as much as a second; and it will enhance your strength by psychological focus and it tightens your chest so that you are better able to absorb a blow there!


References: Matt Thomas --- model mugging!


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Van Canna
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van

This gets very, very interesting for a systems physiologist like myself. I'm also more clear now on where you are coming from.

I have a bunch of comments.

The sensitivity to motion phenomenon is a very interesting one in the whole preditor/prey and enemy vs. enemy thing. Anyone who has seen Jurrasic Park probably remembers the scene where T. Rex is looking for supper and everyone is told to freeze. The eye of this beast (related, by the way, to the modern bird) was sensitive to motion and not shape.

Many modern organisms share that trait. A fly has compound eyes that are hypersensitive to motion. Try catching one with speed and you'll lose every time. You just make it easier for the fly. Approach one slowly and you can crush it before it knows what happened. A painter once showed me this trick; he used it to get rid of pests that might mess up his work.

Humans also possess this ability - in their peripheral vision. Out in the periphery you do not see color at all and you don't see shapes very well. But you see motion extremely well. People in special forces are taught, when advancing, to very slowly pan their head (direct vision) from side to side. This accomplishes two things: the slow movement keeps you from triggering the enemy's motion senses, and the direct vision (better shape detection) allows you to spot someone who is waiting very still for you.

It makes sense then that nature would select for this freeze response. The saber tooth tiger jumps out of the bushes and into a herd or group. The predator will probably grab the first thing moving - their vision responds to motion. Anybody who froze first (briefly) probably escaped detection and lived to pass on their genes. Clueless Johnny Runabout was the meal du jour.

O.K., so we have that response burned into our psyche (our ROM, for the computer geeks) and there are certain situations that trigger it. Walk into a room of people who don't speak English and shout FREEZE!at the top of your lungs. Everyone will indeed freeze for at least a second. Policemen use this to establish control when entering a crime scene. And now you and I know that. And now you and I can take advantage of that, just like the painter takes advantage of the fly's nature. Neat!

And you also have the way people breathe naturally, under various conditions. There are control systems involved which cause changes in tidal volume and respiratory rate to accomodate the demand for oxygen by the tissue. These control systems are real, complex, physiologic feedback systems that behave very well indeed under a wide variety of conditions. But extreme conditions are another story.

Many control systems break down under very, very extreme conditions. The control system that regulates blood flow to tissue breaks down when we lose half our blood volume, or when we have too many toxins floating around in our blood stream. We call that condition shock. The body won't do what it was designed to do.

Soo.... What happens when Joe Citizen has a mugger shout obscentities at him while pointing a gun at his face? S*** can happen....literally. O.K., so he soiled his britches. What next? Our autonomic nervous system has a hierarchy of controls on it - some primal, some automatic, some trained, some conscious. What wins out? Well you throw this control system way the heck out into a set of conditions that are very, very rare. I'd say that all kinds of things could happen, depending...

I think we are both in the right place now.

Bad Joe Citizen freezes and can't breathe because a primal response has won over his whole body. It wasn't supposed to work that way, but that's what's happening. Can't design a system for every contingency, can we? Joe's about to black out from lack of oxygen, and the respiratory control system can't respond (it can do wierd things like that at high altitude). Joe is no longer in control of his destiny. He's a victim to the whims of a very, very bad person.

Good Some way, some how, Joe's system kicks back in after the initial threat. Joe's posture immediately assumes one of a person who is doing what he chooses to do (even if that is to submit). Ten seconds later - before the mugger is able to take him to the second crime scene - Joe turns the table on his attacker. He kiais very loudly as he...

Or something like that.

Questions not yet answered:

* Is there a breathing method that we can practice in our everyday training that might cause good things to happen in the hierarchy of controls over the body under very extreme conditions?

* Is there a way we can mediate the chemical cocktail? The answer is indeed yes. Can we do it enough to make a difference under these extreme conditions? I think so. Some people always survive. Genetics play somewhat of a role. Where does training and experience come in? Where does "walking meditation" come in.

Anything I'm missing?

- Bill
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Post by Van Canna »

“Is there a breathing method that we can practice in our everyday training that might cause good things to happen in the hierarchy of controls over the body under very extreme conditions?”

Consider this: < Recent research has shown that voluntary changes in breathing patterns can modify one’s ability to cope with pain and with threatening fear provoking situations. Some of these investigations have shown that slowing down the respiratory frequency increases depth of breathing significantly, reduces the subjective experience of anxiety under stressful conditions and raises one’s threshold of tolerance to pain!
Voluntarily increasing respiratory frequency, on the other hand, seems to have the opposite effect! > “ [Janis, De Fares, Grossman, 1983]

Think about this for a moment when we teach all that breathing [increased breathing- short bursts of breathing] in between kata movements to decouple breathing from technique!

What is suggested is the programming of slow deep breaths expanding the belly and controlling the respiratory cycle! Inhale allowing the stomach to expand, in turn forcing the lungs to expand to the fullest capacity bringing more oxygen onto the system, expanding the length of the inhale which helps to slow down the respiratory rate!

As we do this, we inhale for a count of three seconds, hold it in for three seconds, and controlled exhale for three seconds!

I recommend this programmed breathing in between katas!

During the kata I recommend a combination of Uechi breathing plus controlled kiai, partial exhale, very sharp!

Once learned and deeply programmed, these controlled breathing techniques should become fairly autonomic!

As a point of interest, notice how in “ model mugging” training, women are taught to shout “ No-No-No-No”?
The reason is, shouting “No” with each strike, prevents the holding of the breath in [remember fear can cause a person to forget to breathe out] and it propels them into action!


Bill: “Is there a way we can mediate the chemical cocktail? The answer is indeed yes. Can we do it enough to make a difference under these extreme conditions? I think so. Some people always survive. Genetics play somewhat of a role. Where does training and experience come in? Where does "walking meditation" come in.”?

Yes indeed! Practice realistic scenarios as per Peyton Quinn’s recommendations; practice visualization and mind set techniques, as well as Mushin principles along a programmed mindset!




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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van

You write <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
During the kata I recommend a combination of Uechi breathing plus controlled kiai, partial exhale, very sharp!
My varied martial background (with various breathing methods) combined with a week of study with Takamiyagi circa 1984 convinced me that more than one breathing method in kata was a good thing. While I throw in an extra method in my kata, we at least see eye-to-eye with the concept of expanding outside the rigid box many operate in.

You write <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What is suggested is the programming of slow deep breaths expanding the belly and controlling the respiratory cycle! Inhale allowing the stomach to expand, in turn forcing the lungs to expand to the fullest capacity bringing more oxygen onto the system, expanding the length of the inhale which helps to slow down the respiratory rate!

As we do this, we inhale for a count of three seconds, hold it in for three seconds, and controlled exhale for three seconds!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See SHINKO KIU, page 49, Uechiryu Karate Do, George E. Mattson. Aren't we talking about a programmed application of this hojo undo? This, by the way, reminds me of some relaxation methods used by psychologists.

I guess where I'm going is that I think we have all the tools right in front of us. We just need to know how to apply them, and why such methods bring benefit.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-15-99).]
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van

Thought I'd share a few quotes from some books on the bookshelf.

From Wilmore (PhD) and Costil (PhD) in Physiology of Sport and Exercise <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Problems Associated With Breathing During Exercise Ideally, during exercise our breathing will be regulated in a way that maximizes our abilities to perform. Unfortunately this doesn't always occur. Many respiratory problems can accompany exercise and hinder performance. ...... Dyspnea The sensation of dyspnea (shortness of breath) during exercise is most common among individuals in poor physical condition who attempt to exercise at levels that significantly elevate their arterial carbon dioxide and H+ concentrations. As noted earlier, both stimuli send strong signals to the inspiratory center to increase the rate and depth of ventilation. Although exercise-induced dyspnea is sensed as an inability to breathe, the underlying cause is an inability to readjust the blood PCO2 and H+. Failure to reduce these stimuli during exercise appears related to poor conditioning of respiratory muscles. Despite a strong neural drive to ventilate the lungs, the respiratory muscles fatigue easily and are unable to reestablish normal homeostasis.
Hmmm... now here's one explanation that's much more mundane than a programmed paralysis reflex. If this were the cause of some or most of the incidents cited during severe stress (which creates tremendous demands for O2 to tissue), then that would argue for certain breathing exercises like dragon breathing. It also argues for any exercise regimen that makes someone breathe heavily.

I'm not saying this is the cause; I just find it striking and interesting. I haven't found anything (yet) in the medical literature that approaches this paralysis reaction you speak of. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the "playing possum" response. Oppossum actually black out when under severe stress. Whether it is adaptive or artifact isn't known. People have their theories. But it is common - for that species. Do mammals have this marsupial response under life-and-death stress?

Wilmore and Costill also speak about hyperventilation, but that's another problem altogether.

Another reference is The Injured Athlete, edited by Kulund (MD). In it, Miklos Tottossy (MA, MS) writes: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Short and shallow mouth breathing is associated with excitement and a loss of emotional control. This panting only uses the upper sections of the lungs and may reduce the deliberateness of the athlete's actions. Abdominal breathing through the nose is a key element for relaxation and concentration, both of which are needed for good exercise and competition (Colletto J, Sloan JL) A person normally breathes through his nose when calm. Moreover, the air is filtered and warmed. The atlete breathes slowly and steadily in through the nose only, allowing the stomach to come out with each breath. Then, as inhalation continues, the stomach is pulled in toward the spine and the chest is filled. Finally, while still breating in, the athlete raises his shoulders to fill the top of his lungs. He holds his breath for 5 to 10 seconds and then exhales slowly and steadily throught the nose. The athlete concentrates on the feeling and sound of his breathing.

These slow, deep breaths slow the heart rate, provide extra oxygen, and put less strain on the cardiovascular system. The athlete can breathe in this manner while he is waiting to perform in practice and during time-outs and breaks in the action. This breathing is a part of relaxation techniques used as preparation for sporting activity. The athlete lies on his back, breathes through his nose, and concentrates on the techniques that he will use and the assignments he will have in the upcoming event of contest. He mentally rehearses the upcoming activity, imagining a pefectly executed, skilled performance (Tschudi O).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is what I referred to in the previous post.

- Bill
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Post by Mary S »

Van-San and Bill-San. I find this very interesting (sorry I'm not a doctor but I thought I'd contribute anyway).

One of my fellow karate-ka has expressed frustration with breathing techniques and asked me if I had any suggestions. Even though I am not the "best breather" in the world, I suggested two things she should practice.

Raise both arms above the head (either standing or lying down) and take a full breath. It "has" to go all the way down (she breathes very shallow and says she is having trouble developing a "Uechi-belly".) I also told her I used to do this to increase lung capacity. It helps to visualize yourself naked while covering up only with a wooden barrel around the middle area. (Strange but it works.)

The other thing I told her to do is relax!!

I think because she isn't breathing properly she gets tense which simply makes the situation worse. When we are tight, it seems everything gets tight (chest, throat, etc.) and the air simply cannot get down there.

Someone told me years ago that as infants we do breathe properly (fully)- ever see a baby breathe - but as we get older we "forget" how to breathe.

Do you think once one learns how to breathe (properly) it gets easier to modify breathing patterns?

Any comments or other suggestions on this?

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Post by Shelly King »

Just a little side note...

"Do mammals have this marsupial response under life-and-death stress?" Bill

Angel fish are known to faint under times of physical stress/shock also. So it definatly isn't just a marsupial response. As far as the effect in mammals...there are people who faced traumatic events (ie. muggings, crashes, etc.) who to onlookers appeared to function normally, but when questioned the person had no mental memory of the event's details. In a way they kind of blacked out mentally but not physically. While other people in similar situations can remember every detail. Is this a function of being able to breath, genetic makeup, or personality?

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mary

You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Do you think once one learns how to breathe (properly) it gets easier to modify breathing patterns?
Well in a word, yes! Breathing has both conscious and autonomic (as opposed to automatic) inputs. The conscious part is "learned" behavior. Breathing also involves muscles (diaphram, abdominals, intercostals) that can be made both stronger and more coordinated. All that comes from training.

Shelly

Interesting. My angel fish just killed each other. Actually though I remember hearing that, now that you mention it.

I think the "blacked out mentally but not physically" phenomenon is purely a psychological one. Paul Giella is probably a much better expert than I, although I bet Van has a reference or two on the subject. This is likely a very complex phenomenon having to do with short-term memory, long-term memory, the centralized mental (primal??) control under severe stress, a type of post-traumatic-stress phenomenon, etc, etc. All the fuzzy stuff that the soft scientists are good at explaining.

Funny, I always had just the opposite reaction. Can't remember the name of the phenomenon (brady or tachy somethingorother...Van knows), but it's when time goes slower. I recall information I'd never pick up under normal circumstances.

Van

As an addendum to my previous post, I thought of the following. You wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
people in fights report that their lungs seemed to be on fire
Interesting. Lactic acid buildup causes a burn. Lactic acid buildup is common under extreme exercise conditions, and especially in poorly-conditioned muscles. This is consistent with the "poor conditioning of respiratory muscles" mechanism suggested by Wilmore and Costill. Again, either poorly conditioned muscles, or muscles under extreme stress. Feel the burn. (Fonda, Jane). :-)
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Post by Van Canna »

Very interesting stuff here! For the first time we are making some headway into this breathing dilemma that has been confusing Uechi-ka by the thousands in spite of the best efforts of senseis to educate them! The problem is that most senseis, I don’t care where they have trained, don’t have the foggiest idea of what really takes place in the human body when locked in potential mortal combat, thus they cannot fathom the parallels between survival performance, breath control, and autonomic response, much beyond the traditional “ breathe as you need to, but don’t you dare breathe as you thrust”!

As we have seen, it is much more complex than that and, we as teachers, have an obligation to learn the whole story before we start giving explanations to a student who says “ But sensei, this Uechi breathing did not seem to work when I got into a situation, in fact, I felt like I was going to suffocate and pass out”! Or what do you tell the older student who turns red and seems on the verge of a heart attack during his Dan test?? What will you tell his estate’s lawyer if he should die on the floor? I have seen a couple of cases coming pretty close to that!

The truth of the matter is that although the relationship between breath control and combat performance has been discussed for centuries in ancient philosophy and martial arts systems, today, modern science is just beginning to unveil many of the “secrets” of breath control as commandeered by the autonomic response!

For example I’d like to hear an explanation on how Uechi breathing would calm the Hyper-ventilation [rapid breathing], which can be another autonomic stress response in some people! You know, CO2 reduces in your blood stream, blood acid level goes down, changes in renal functions set in, you have increased risk of cardiac dysrhythmia , elevation of the heart rate, decreased oxygen supply to brain tissue, and heightened cerebral vasoconstriction….

This degrades mental coordination as well as physical, normal intellectual processes become very difficult, and the mind defaults to very primitive and basic response! Sounds familiar? It should after two years of saying the same thing over and over, but people will always persist in their denial!

Something else very interesting I learned from the top combat master [police trainer -world wide] John Farnam.
“ Under stress your “echoic” memory will be degraded and you will lose your ability to manage your memory of rapidly occurring events” in spite of the “TACHYPSYCHIA” effect, from the Greek “ speed of the mind” …
“The mind speeds up its processing time- constant, giving the illusion everything is going in slow motion! “

Here is something else from our illustrious Massad Ayoob of the LFI institute:

1] If you find yourself in a stressful situation and have the time [Dan test day?] … Practice this, ritually, before you go up before the board: tense all your muscles rigidly, take a deep breath, and hold for as long as you can. He says that this helps develop steely, tremor free nerves, and reduce panting when afflicted by body alarm reaction [Chemical cocktail]!

2] Take a deep breath, place your palms together in front of your chest, press them into one another as hard as you can with dynamic tension for as long as you can hold your breath!

3] Clench your fists as hard as you can with a sympathetic tightening of the muscles all the way up the arms. Curl the fists inward for maximum muscle tension. Hold as hard and as long as you can, then “ shake out” your hands and arms! An effective physical stress outlet, loosening muscles and tendons!

4] To restore oxygen/CO2 balance; in hyperventilation case, take a deep breath then “hiss it out” slowly but completely and fiercely [the attack of the cat people]! The equivalent of breathing into a paper bag!!

JD, you wrote: “The "Hollywood" situation where you "forget" who you are, leave your job and meet Kim Basinger, does not happen. This syndrome is psychological and has been referred to as a fugue state”

Very good! There is a response called “ Amaurosis fugax “ [sounds very romantic] … “ temporary blindness which, in some susceptible individuals, when seeing something terrible or very traumatic to their sensibilities, the brain shuts down disallowing the optic input! “ So if they never saw it they cannot possibly remember it!

Okay guys keep it up!




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Post by Mary S »

Van-Sensei - you asked how Uechi breathing would calm hyperventilation...for my $0.02 I think that because we breath in through the nose and release though the mouth that system works for calming.

When we do this we are forced not "eat" air (i.e. gulp it in) but regulate our intake through the nose and thus the body is forced to "sanction" itself causing the air to go where it is needed rather than be wasted.

Interestingly, a problem that people have when administering mouth-to-mouth recesitation is that the stomach tends to fill with air rather than the lungs, distending the stomach and causing vomiting of the contents.

I also think that when we are first taught to Uechi breathe we all try to do it correctly and perhaps it is more forced than it should be (we try to hard). My sensei worked on breathing with us (and still does) but now stresses the half-hard/half-soft concept which seems to have helped in understanding this very complex mechanism. Breathing when thrusting is not good but holding the breath is worse.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van et al

More from Wilmore and Costill. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The anticipation or anxiety of exercise, as well as some respiratory disorders, can cause a sudden increase in ventilation that exceeds the metabolic need for oxygen. Such overbreathing is termed hyperventilation. At rest, voluntary hyperventilation decreases the normal PCO2 of 40 mmHg in the alveoli and arterial blood {this, Uechi folks, is the place where air meets blood in the lungs} to about 15 mmHg. As carbon dioxide levels drop, so do H+ levels; thus blood pH increases. ..... Because the blood leaving the lungs is nearly always about 98% saturated with oxygen, an increase in the alveolar PO2 does not increasee the oxygen content of the blood. .... When performed for only a few seconds, such deep, rapid breathing can lead to lightheadedness and even loss of consciousness. This phenomenon reveals the sensitivity of the respiratory systm's regulation of carbon dioxide and pH.
Pulmonary physiologists often refer to this state as respiratory (as opposed to metabolic) alkalosis.

I find Ayoob's comments...interesting. In particular <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
To restore oxygen/CO2 balance; in hyperventilation case, take a deep breath then “hiss it out” slowly but completely and fiercely [the attack of the cat people]! The equivalent of breathing into a paper bag!!
I have a number of comments:

* In light of what was quoted above, paper bag breathing works by recycling CO2. This then restores blood levels of PCO2 and pH to within functional ranges. It doesn't stop the rapid breathing per se. It just averts the negative consequences of it.

* If Ayoob's method works, it wouldn't work by the mechanism suggested above. It would only work by getting directly at attenuating the rate of breathing - certainly a more desirable method if it works. I'll make further comments about this possibility later in discussions about tension/relaxation.

* My very first kata, from the Nippon Shorin Ken system, was a series of 5 kata - the Teisho (introductory lecture) series. Many classic systems of karate have sets like these to drill basic techniques. The teisho series are actually a bit more elegant than most. At the very end of teisho number one, the practitioner performs a knife-hand block, and then draws back tiger-clawed with dynamic tension while hissing like a cat. You do one on each side, and then the kata ends. I never thought much of it, except for the fact that my sensei really liked the way my sister and I did that final motion. He would shout Usssaahh! Fast forward about 15 years to my Uechi yondan test in Brockton. In my sparring match, my partner nailed me with a really good solar plexus shot in the first exchange. I felt that special, painful feeling when you know the diaphram is betraying you. From out of nowhere, that "cat hissing" move from teisho kata just came out. Problem solved. The rest of the match was mine. In fact...I venture to say that the shot to my belly and the technique I used to avert the bad outcome actually supercharged me. It was one of those really fun, memorable sparring matches.

Other comments about Ayoob's advice:

* Taking a deep breath and bearing down (the dreaded Valsalva that has been discussed before) isn't all that healthful a thing to do. In fact, it's possible to black out from an extreme Valsalva. That is likely hypotension subsequent to overstimulation of the baroreceptors (aortic and carotid). But maybe a little doesn't hurt to lower some sky-high blood pressure. I haven't digested that information enough yet. In class though, I always tell my people not to breath-hold when straining. Most modern sport exercise texts recommend the same.

* Psychologists teach "tension relaxation" exercises the drill works something like this:

1) Tense a given muscle for about 10 seconds

2) Slowly relax the muscle and feel the difference between the two states.

3) Reat 1 and 2 for the same muscle, several times.

4) Switch to another muscle, and repeat Steps 1 through 3. Do for 4 or 5 different muscles.

5) Meditate on a beach scene, or something else that you associate with relaxing.

6) Repeat steps 1 through 5, until you've done every major muscle in the body.

After doing this training, one is supposed to be able to attenuate the sympathetic response by doing just a few tension/relaxation sequences and/or think of the beach scene. One ususally does this to avert excess stress before public speaking, taking a test, etc, etc. But obviously one could consider it for more serious situations.

I think the bottom line is that various meditative practices can come in handy. Is there something unique to the tension/relaxation method? Does this show a little vision on the part of Miyagi when developing a dynamic tension sanchin method? Not to say that this needs to be the way to do sanchin. What other practices inside and outside the dojo offer similar benefits? Normal sanchin with the Uechi sanchin breathing? Perhaps many are confusing training methods with fighting methods.

Just more random thoughts for the pool of information.

- Bill
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