Good Afternoon,
Kano promoted two of his students, Tomita and Saito to shodan in 1883. However, since the gi had not been invented, there was no "black belt" to wear. Kano used the black belt to differentiate the dans from the kyus in 1886. However, the gi still did not come about until 1907. Up until this point, judoka practiced in their kimonos.
After Funakoshi introduced karate to mainstream Japan, the "Dai-Nippon Butokukai" required karate to adopt 4 conditions. Two of those were to (A) Use gis as the standard uniform (B) Adopt the Kyu-Dan ranking system.
I'll continue this on S. DiOrio's history forum. I don't want to get too much off track.
Gene
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Moderator: Available
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Gene DeMambro
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Bill Glasheen
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Gene
Thanks for the information. It is most helpful.
Mike
Your points are very well taken. As I asked before, To what end? Historians - and not gossipers with an agenda - are indeed needed to sort out our past so that we all understand our destiny. I applaud any fact-finding activity that helps us understand our past and helps us avoid the "human" mistakes of the future.
Many of the parties involved are alive today. Some are a phone call or e-mail away. Here's a good project for some future author! And I do not mind this forum being a part of that investigative process. I merely want to avoid the types of discussions that are more heat than light.
- Bill
Thanks for the information. It is most helpful.
Mike
Your points are very well taken. As I asked before, To what end? Historians - and not gossipers with an agenda - are indeed needed to sort out our past so that we all understand our destiny. I applaud any fact-finding activity that helps us understand our past and helps us avoid the "human" mistakes of the future.
Many of the parties involved are alive today. Some are a phone call or e-mail away. Here's a good project for some future author! And I do not mind this forum being a part of that investigative process. I merely want to avoid the types of discussions that are more heat than light.
- Bill
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mikemurphy
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
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rank (again?)
Bill-san,
You are correct in the legal issue on Okinawa; however, it probably inevitable that a change, whether in name or not, would have occurred with the split. I harbor no bad feeling toward those you train in Shohei, although I have questions with those on both sides that initiated all this. Questions are still out there even though it has been eight years since the death of Kanie Uechi sensei. When will they be answered? And to most people's satisfaction? And will answers be forth coming when the questions are answered?
I somewhat agree with you that old wounds should heal, but as a historian I can not and will not turn my back on what has occurred. What I know is mostly second-hand and somewhat reliable; however, that is not good enough. In order to find an answer, one must know the problem. You are in the medical field, do they go after the disease or after its cause? The answer is that they put a bandaid on the disease and research what causes the problem.
I know this is a difficult situation for everyone. In my initial post, I mention the problem I have with the promotional as sesei Mattson does. I have a problem with the way it happened and who it involved. But why do we have to ignore the issue (which is the way it has always been). When do we start treating this as something to investigate rather than something to ignore? It doesn't mean that we have to talk about it with animosity with others. I will still work out with the Shohei group and they will still have an open invitation to my dojo.
I'm sure this topic will once again get brushed under the rug until the next incident occurs that triggers it; however, is that really how we want to treat it?
Yours in budo,
Mike
You are correct in the legal issue on Okinawa; however, it probably inevitable that a change, whether in name or not, would have occurred with the split. I harbor no bad feeling toward those you train in Shohei, although I have questions with those on both sides that initiated all this. Questions are still out there even though it has been eight years since the death of Kanie Uechi sensei. When will they be answered? And to most people's satisfaction? And will answers be forth coming when the questions are answered?
I somewhat agree with you that old wounds should heal, but as a historian I can not and will not turn my back on what has occurred. What I know is mostly second-hand and somewhat reliable; however, that is not good enough. In order to find an answer, one must know the problem. You are in the medical field, do they go after the disease or after its cause? The answer is that they put a bandaid on the disease and research what causes the problem.
I know this is a difficult situation for everyone. In my initial post, I mention the problem I have with the promotional as sesei Mattson does. I have a problem with the way it happened and who it involved. But why do we have to ignore the issue (which is the way it has always been). When do we start treating this as something to investigate rather than something to ignore? It doesn't mean that we have to talk about it with animosity with others. I will still work out with the Shohei group and they will still have an open invitation to my dojo.
I'm sure this topic will once again get brushed under the rug until the next incident occurs that triggers it; however, is that really how we want to treat it?
Yours in budo,
Mike
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mikemurphy
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- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Bill-san,
I agree that rumor is not the way to go, and I repeat that I have no first hand knowledge of what happened in 1991. I have spoken, as many of us have, to people that were there, but how reliable is it if they already have chosen a side? I don't know. You are correct in that history should be based on the truth, however, who's truth are we talking about? After speaking with several people who were "there," I've heard several different stories. You know, the stuff tabloids are made of. The point is that we all have to decipher what we hear with what we know and put it together as best we can. Would I publish the findings?? No way!
Your in budo,
Mike
I agree that rumor is not the way to go, and I repeat that I have no first hand knowledge of what happened in 1991. I have spoken, as many of us have, to people that were there, but how reliable is it if they already have chosen a side? I don't know. You are correct in that history should be based on the truth, however, who's truth are we talking about? After speaking with several people who were "there," I've heard several different stories. You know, the stuff tabloids are made of. The point is that we all have to decipher what we hear with what we know and put it together as best we can. Would I publish the findings?? No way!
Your in budo,
Mike
rank (again?)
Phils is right on the money in his post.
And although it may be too late to eliminate ranks (or our desire to achieve them altogether), his anology of musicians and concert pianists is well stated and well taken.
You're probably a man of the floor, Phils. And this is where all the BS ends. There are masters like GEM, Van Canna-sensei and others who you will find in dojo, with thier dogi on actively training and promoting their art, and then you will find the "thumbs-in-their-belt" crowd. They know who they are and we do too.
That said, the promotion process is obviously very seriously flawed. In Uechi-ryu today it stinks from the head down and from the tail up. We have Shodans that should be Yondans and Rokudans who should have never made it past gokyu.
Apparently, today rank is there for the asking, or in the most recent case, there for the giving/taking before someone's feelings get hurt and they start to cry and whine. Boo hoo.
My (perhaps mistaken) take is that few, if any, of the masters actually ASKED for their most recent promotion. It was simply GIVEN to them, and has been pointed out, without the consultation/consent of their teacher! HORRENDOUS!
So what do they do, smile and politely shake their heads "no" as the head of our system calls their names in front of a crowd of their contemporaries?! RIDICULOUS!
The entire situation ***** and is an embarrassment to our system, to ourselves and to the couple of men in the group who truly deserved the recognition, but received it in a way that will permanently stain their amazing achievement. The others are simply "riding coattails". DEPRESSING!
Perplexed,
Gary
[This message has been edited by gjkhoury (edited 10-31-99).]
And although it may be too late to eliminate ranks (or our desire to achieve them altogether), his anology of musicians and concert pianists is well stated and well taken.
You're probably a man of the floor, Phils. And this is where all the BS ends. There are masters like GEM, Van Canna-sensei and others who you will find in dojo, with thier dogi on actively training and promoting their art, and then you will find the "thumbs-in-their-belt" crowd. They know who they are and we do too.
That said, the promotion process is obviously very seriously flawed. In Uechi-ryu today it stinks from the head down and from the tail up. We have Shodans that should be Yondans and Rokudans who should have never made it past gokyu.
Apparently, today rank is there for the asking, or in the most recent case, there for the giving/taking before someone's feelings get hurt and they start to cry and whine. Boo hoo.
My (perhaps mistaken) take is that few, if any, of the masters actually ASKED for their most recent promotion. It was simply GIVEN to them, and has been pointed out, without the consultation/consent of their teacher! HORRENDOUS!
So what do they do, smile and politely shake their heads "no" as the head of our system calls their names in front of a crowd of their contemporaries?! RIDICULOUS!
The entire situation ***** and is an embarrassment to our system, to ourselves and to the couple of men in the group who truly deserved the recognition, but received it in a way that will permanently stain their amazing achievement. The others are simply "riding coattails". DEPRESSING!
Perplexed,
Gary
[This message has been edited by gjkhoury (edited 10-31-99).]
rank (again?)
Some e-mail I am receiving makes mention that our “ adverse organizations” may question the “ PROCESS” of High Dan promotions!
First of all they should be careful about throwing rocks, given they dwell in glass houses themselves!
Secondly how do we define process! As it has been suggested we can nitpick over a “biased” peer group v. an independent group of SS the candidate has to “win over”! I can assure you there is a lot less bias in peer validation than any “political test board,” and they all are, bar none! Okinawa is not immune to this problem!
WIN OVER? When was the last time any Uechi organization has turned down an 8th Dan candidate, or a 7th, or a 6th?
Certain individuals will progress to deserve high Dan ranks regardless of some artificial "process”!
For example: What was Kanei Uechi’s rank when his father Kanbun died!
Who promoted him to his higher ranks as he proceeded through his training years?
What made him so special to deserve the title of grand master as opposed to other individuals who trained along with him under Kanbun?
What was Kanbun’s rank when he died? Who awarded him his rank?
I have heard the argument that Kanmei was exposed to his father’s teachings 24 hours a day [he lived under the same roof] certainly he got more out of his father’s guidance than most others on the island! So the argument goes that even at the rank of Godan he had forgotten more about Uechi-Ryu than most others would ever know! So it is simply arrogance to say that the son of the Grand master has no skills and cannot recognize well-deserved high rank, when the “other side” is bent on changing the style of his father and grandfather!
This was one concern Kanmei voiced in his speech At Buzz Durkin’s festival last week!
And what defines a master?
And what defines a 6th, 7th,or 8th Dan?
What do we look for in those people? What is the yardstick?
How do they tangibly measure up? What people don’t realize is that Uechi-Ryu, just like any other field of endeavor, is subjective in standards of performance both in physical and personal character; so who is to judge?
Who judged Kanbun and his son Kanei??
Who will judge you?
------------------
Van Canna
First of all they should be careful about throwing rocks, given they dwell in glass houses themselves!
Secondly how do we define process! As it has been suggested we can nitpick over a “biased” peer group v. an independent group of SS the candidate has to “win over”! I can assure you there is a lot less bias in peer validation than any “political test board,” and they all are, bar none! Okinawa is not immune to this problem!
WIN OVER? When was the last time any Uechi organization has turned down an 8th Dan candidate, or a 7th, or a 6th?
Certain individuals will progress to deserve high Dan ranks regardless of some artificial "process”!
For example: What was Kanei Uechi’s rank when his father Kanbun died!
Who promoted him to his higher ranks as he proceeded through his training years?
What made him so special to deserve the title of grand master as opposed to other individuals who trained along with him under Kanbun?
What was Kanbun’s rank when he died? Who awarded him his rank?
I have heard the argument that Kanmei was exposed to his father’s teachings 24 hours a day [he lived under the same roof] certainly he got more out of his father’s guidance than most others on the island! So the argument goes that even at the rank of Godan he had forgotten more about Uechi-Ryu than most others would ever know! So it is simply arrogance to say that the son of the Grand master has no skills and cannot recognize well-deserved high rank, when the “other side” is bent on changing the style of his father and grandfather!
This was one concern Kanmei voiced in his speech At Buzz Durkin’s festival last week!
And what defines a master?
And what defines a 6th, 7th,or 8th Dan?
What do we look for in those people? What is the yardstick?
How do they tangibly measure up? What people don’t realize is that Uechi-Ryu, just like any other field of endeavor, is subjective in standards of performance both in physical and personal character; so who is to judge?
Who judged Kanbun and his son Kanei??
Who will judge you?
------------------
Van Canna
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mikemurphy
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Van Canna-Sensei,
Thank you for your words (and questions) regarding this highly sensitive topic. You raise many questions that may never be answered, yet hold true.
I must say that I agree with you regarding the board and recognition by your peers as the most important part of the test. Although hardly your peer, I was there at your test and saw the faces of that prestigious board after you completed your kata. It was a magnificant display of years of dedication to an art that is obviously very personal. It is still one of my favorite moments at all the summer camps!
I'm sure the same was true for many of the people who tested recently. Who is going to question Bethoney sensei's dedication, or Maloney sensei's. Anyone who has ever watched them and worked with them know what you are talking about. I honestly have never seen or worked with the other two.
But where does it all put us in the larger scheme of promotions, etc.? As seniors, is it up to you and sensei Mattson, etc. to set something down in stone? Or, should Kanmei Uechi sensei put it down on paper somewhere so that all schools should know what to expect when they a test? Like it or not, everyone is not a leader, some are content to be followers.
Yours in budo,
Mike
Thank you for your words (and questions) regarding this highly sensitive topic. You raise many questions that may never be answered, yet hold true.
I must say that I agree with you regarding the board and recognition by your peers as the most important part of the test. Although hardly your peer, I was there at your test and saw the faces of that prestigious board after you completed your kata. It was a magnificant display of years of dedication to an art that is obviously very personal. It is still one of my favorite moments at all the summer camps!
I'm sure the same was true for many of the people who tested recently. Who is going to question Bethoney sensei's dedication, or Maloney sensei's. Anyone who has ever watched them and worked with them know what you are talking about. I honestly have never seen or worked with the other two.
But where does it all put us in the larger scheme of promotions, etc.? As seniors, is it up to you and sensei Mattson, etc. to set something down in stone? Or, should Kanmei Uechi sensei put it down on paper somewhere so that all schools should know what to expect when they a test? Like it or not, everyone is not a leader, some are content to be followers.
Yours in budo,
Mike
rank (again?)
Anthony:
The answer to your question would be no.
Gary
The answer to your question would be no.
Gary
rank (again?)
Good observations by Paul, and especially by Gary Khoury – sensei; but then again, as you get up in rank you may well run out of teachers, and or there will be criticism of bias /favoritism if only the teacher decides on the promotion! For Example, the 10th DAN on Okinawa is awarded by the all Okinawa federation, in essence, a group of peers!
At the high rank level, 8th and above, if you do not have peer validation, you have nothing!
Ha, boards - ~ there are “boards” and then there are BOARDS! So what’s a real board? The first thing the “other side” is fond of asking after a high Dan test is, yes, but who was the board? I have a question for those guys: When was the last time an 8th Dan candidate went up before an Okinawan or American “board” and failed? Is 8th Dan an Honorary thing? [Like being old and out of shape or sick] or should it demand a stellar performance on the floor with a certain power and grace above and beyond lower DANS?
And so who decides? Yeah, what’s the board pal? And who is in charge of the board? Who has a say in what?
I’ll tell you what a real board is made of!
When I went up for my 8th Dan, I dedicated my performance to my teacher, yes, but mostly to my peers in attendance on that day, who had previously been consulted by my teacher and who had given a 100% nod! When I saw them rise from their seats with that “certain smile” on their faces,[ you can always tell by their faces- just like a jury coming back to announce a verdict ] I knew my acceptance was “ validated” and I felt complete! That validation had come from people who command worldwide respect in our system! There is no politics associated with a board of peers!
That was one of my finest days; your Dan promotions should always be your finest days of your lives, or it means nothing if surrounded by controversy!
Then we have the “money thing”!
The charging of outrageous fees by any organization for high rank is unconscionable and it detracts from its solemnity! Is $800 a reasonable fee for 8th Dan? Who are we kidding about this rank thing!!
------------------
Van Canna
At the high rank level, 8th and above, if you do not have peer validation, you have nothing!
Ha, boards - ~ there are “boards” and then there are BOARDS! So what’s a real board? The first thing the “other side” is fond of asking after a high Dan test is, yes, but who was the board? I have a question for those guys: When was the last time an 8th Dan candidate went up before an Okinawan or American “board” and failed? Is 8th Dan an Honorary thing? [Like being old and out of shape or sick] or should it demand a stellar performance on the floor with a certain power and grace above and beyond lower DANS?
And so who decides? Yeah, what’s the board pal? And who is in charge of the board? Who has a say in what?
I’ll tell you what a real board is made of!
When I went up for my 8th Dan, I dedicated my performance to my teacher, yes, but mostly to my peers in attendance on that day, who had previously been consulted by my teacher and who had given a 100% nod! When I saw them rise from their seats with that “certain smile” on their faces,[ you can always tell by their faces- just like a jury coming back to announce a verdict ] I knew my acceptance was “ validated” and I felt complete! That validation had come from people who command worldwide respect in our system! There is no politics associated with a board of peers!
That was one of my finest days; your Dan promotions should always be your finest days of your lives, or it means nothing if surrounded by controversy!
Then we have the “money thing”!
The charging of outrageous fees by any organization for high rank is unconscionable and it detracts from its solemnity! Is $800 a reasonable fee for 8th Dan? Who are we kidding about this rank thing!!
------------------
Van Canna
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
rank (again?)
Gary posted something elsewhere that says it all <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Be the change you want to see in the world
- Anonymous<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What's happened must be considered a fait accomplis. I believe that what should be done in the future is for us to press for a more satifactory process, and for each of us to do our part in our own progress to live the vision we wish for our style. And yes, this is just as important for Kenyukai and pangainoon and Shohei as it is for Soke. We all benefit when we all strive for excellence. We all suffer when some cheapen the process.
Random comments...
I agree with Van, that individuals want a process that gives value to their recognition. I was on a board at Van's promotional. I say I was on a board rather than the board because I really was not their to be judge of someone going up for 8th dan. But I wouldn't have traded my seat for anything. It was a memorable experience being there. What sticks in my mind is that I knew Van had pulled a muscle very shortly before the promotional. I knew he was in a lot of pain. You had to look real hard to see any evidence of compromised performance. Those of us who have been forced to perform when injured know the guts that takes. So...while I do not consider myself Van's judge, it was a very special event for me and everyone who took part in it. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to circumvent that process. Those who do really miss out. I feel sorry for them.
Another issue that bugged me for years is the "title" thing. You know....renshi, kyoshi, hanshi.... Where I came from (another style), those titles were separate from rank. You had to do something special to achieve that. It meant you had made major contributions and were considered an authority in some manner. In the Uechi system, it seemed - to me - like these titles were given gatis along with specific ranks (renshi rokudan, kyoshi nanadan, hanshi hachidan...). When it was my turn, I wanted more. That's why I initiated the whole "thesis" deal for myself. And now my title means something - to me. That's what matters in the end. As far as I know, George is still using this system, and I don't know that any other organization in the broader Uechi community has such a formal deal. But not my problem....
I find it mildly annoying that some folks insist on commenting behind the scenes. Interesting that I brought up the issue of character when discussing rank above. How ironic that some choose to criticize on this topic - behind the scenes. Pat posted and was quite caustic. He was even a bit mistaken. But, by god, he said what he thought! I respect that - big time. A bow to you, Pat!
As for changes made by any in our broader Uechi community, I have mixed feelings. I believe change instituded to create chasms between our various branches is onerous. But not all change is bad. Look at the changes that have happened (so to write) from Shushiwa to Kanbun to Kanei! Major!! More than most know or want to admit. Some is bad; the style has lost important Chinese elements and mindsets. But much of it has been good. So....what's so majic about those three generations? We all should strive not to do what others have done, but to seek what they sought. I say that as long as we all can get together and share our thoughts, then change has the potential of helping us all grow. But yes, it is painful.
- Bill
- Anonymous<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What's happened must be considered a fait accomplis. I believe that what should be done in the future is for us to press for a more satifactory process, and for each of us to do our part in our own progress to live the vision we wish for our style. And yes, this is just as important for Kenyukai and pangainoon and Shohei as it is for Soke. We all benefit when we all strive for excellence. We all suffer when some cheapen the process.
Random comments...
I agree with Van, that individuals want a process that gives value to their recognition. I was on a board at Van's promotional. I say I was on a board rather than the board because I really was not their to be judge of someone going up for 8th dan. But I wouldn't have traded my seat for anything. It was a memorable experience being there. What sticks in my mind is that I knew Van had pulled a muscle very shortly before the promotional. I knew he was in a lot of pain. You had to look real hard to see any evidence of compromised performance. Those of us who have been forced to perform when injured know the guts that takes. So...while I do not consider myself Van's judge, it was a very special event for me and everyone who took part in it. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to circumvent that process. Those who do really miss out. I feel sorry for them.
Another issue that bugged me for years is the "title" thing. You know....renshi, kyoshi, hanshi.... Where I came from (another style), those titles were separate from rank. You had to do something special to achieve that. It meant you had made major contributions and were considered an authority in some manner. In the Uechi system, it seemed - to me - like these titles were given gatis along with specific ranks (renshi rokudan, kyoshi nanadan, hanshi hachidan...). When it was my turn, I wanted more. That's why I initiated the whole "thesis" deal for myself. And now my title means something - to me. That's what matters in the end. As far as I know, George is still using this system, and I don't know that any other organization in the broader Uechi community has such a formal deal. But not my problem....
I find it mildly annoying that some folks insist on commenting behind the scenes. Interesting that I brought up the issue of character when discussing rank above. How ironic that some choose to criticize on this topic - behind the scenes. Pat posted and was quite caustic. He was even a bit mistaken. But, by god, he said what he thought! I respect that - big time. A bow to you, Pat!
As for changes made by any in our broader Uechi community, I have mixed feelings. I believe change instituded to create chasms between our various branches is onerous. But not all change is bad. Look at the changes that have happened (so to write) from Shushiwa to Kanbun to Kanei! Major!! More than most know or want to admit. Some is bad; the style has lost important Chinese elements and mindsets. But much of it has been good. So....what's so majic about those three generations? We all should strive not to do what others have done, but to seek what they sought. I say that as long as we all can get together and share our thoughts, then change has the potential of helping us all grow. But yes, it is painful.
- Bill
rank (again?)
Bill: I just noticed your last message here posted at an earlier time than the previous message. Must be me or a system problem you might want to check out. Phil
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 11-03-99).]
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 11-03-99).]
