rank (again?)

[mikemurphy]

To all:

WOW! Have you all read Sensei Mattson's comments concerning the recent promotions? I tell you what, I already had a tremendous amount of respect for him before as my teacher, a Uechi practitioner, and a friend, but now I have even more (if that is possible). To come out and say what so many people are thinking and yet, are too uncomfortable to actually say is great.

Don't get me wrong, I don't the the whole situation is right, but to put it out in the open for everyone to see and hear is exceptional foresight on Sensei Mattson's part. It is so important for our students and peers to see that the seniors have an opinion on the things that happen in the Uechi community and don't hide behind some apolitical facade.

Regarding the promotions...I don't necessarilly agree (and have said so before) that promotions should wait, regardless of rank, because of some notion of propriety. If a person(s) is ready, then they should be tested. End of story! However, I was not (and should not have been) involved in that decision process. What they decided was good for the art and the Uechi-ryu Karate Association as a whole. With that said, who am I to question Uechi Kanmei sensei either. I'm sure he has done what he thought was right. I'm sure he is not purposely shooting himself in the foot. But I have to question in my heart why certain people were "given" rank. What is the criteria for such a rank (8th)? I saw Van Canna sensei and Rebesa sensei's test. I know that they deserved what they got. What about the rest?

I'm not saying the new hachidans don't work out or anything like that or that some of them are not deserving (I happen to believe that some were), but WHAT IS THE CRITERIA? Time-in-rank? Show up at a few sponsored events? Talk a good game? Shmooz up to the biggies? $$$$$? How could some people live with themselves knowing that they didn't really work for it? Hey, those who have been up to my dojo know that I have a wall of wonderful paper. Certificates everywhere and God, it looks impressive. Why are they there? Business, that's why. But are they earned. You bet! Everyone one of them!

I know that we have all discussed what we believe budo is to each of us. To me it is a lot of things, but the most important part of it has to be what the art does to me and how I live within the art. Placing a plaque on my wall that doesn't belong would sicken me and I would not be able to show my face to my students. Others obviously can and will continue to, which is now more obvious than not.

In conclusion, what do we do? Sensei Mattson does not paint a rosy picture. Do we need to pull together and issue a statement of sorts? Do we simply shrug if off and hope that it doesn't happen again? Do we all form a line at the certificate mill with our checks in hand and get what we can get? I don't know. I do know that I will not be a party to the "handing out" of certificates when it comes to my students.
Worse yet, is what does it show to the Shohei group that was in attendace? Of those other notables (i.e. James Thompson)? I can just picture his face.

I support sensei Mattson and his comments regardless of what the majority or silent majority think. Let's not water down the integrity of the art!!

Yours in Budo,

Mike

[Gary Santaniello]

Hi Mike,

Yes, i also read the comments and do not what to conclude. Seeing as i do not fully undertand the circumstances and details involved in the rescent situation, i have respectfully askes Sensei Mattson for more detailed info. Possibly it will be expanded on here on your post.

As you mention, you do have "Beautiful Paper"on your walls ! (smile) and i will certaily agree that you have earned it also. My pleasure to be your frequent guest.

Suerely "rank" will always be an issue. Many will want to obtain it regardless of how. I agrre with you that those who deserve it should not be held back do to "limited" promotions of high rank. If one truley deserves it and meets all the requirements of others, they to should be entittled.

I share many of the same questions as you, and more. I will see you soon !

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Gary S.

[mikemurphy]

Pat:

I applaud you for your candid response, but I don't know if you are correct in your overall assessment on the current situation.

Can answer all the questions? Absolutely not; however, I have spoken with many people concerning this issue (both sides)and have generally come up with a consensus.

First, concerning Uechi Kanmei's rank. I'm not sure what his actual rank was at the passing of his father, however, to say that his claiming another rank his the reason for the split is ludicrous. The people from Shohei split because, just like Kanmei-san, they wanted to be in charge. It was a power-play on all sides with no compromise to be had, especially between two of the principals. Kanei Uechi held the factions together and with his passing it simply came undone. By-the-way, I am under the impression that he wanted Kanmei to take over after he was gone anyway.

As for Kanmei passing out rank. He is the head of the Uechi-ryu Karate Association and that's how many of us look upon him as, regardless of rank. If the association and its representatives see fit to promote someone, then they must have very good reason for it (although, as I said earlier, I question it myself in the most recent case). In addition, look at it this way. Karate-do is not just the movements of a particular style. It's how you live, and promote (oops, bad word) yourself to others that count too. Kanmei-san is the son of one of the most prestigious practitioners of the 20th century. By just living with the man for as many years as he did, he has gained valuable knowledge that no one will ever have the opportunity to attain. Put it this way, I am a godan and would feel proud to have Kanmei Uechi test me for my next rank.

So I would say this to you, as is the way of politics, please be careful what you say and write. Your side of the story is same as what I have heard from Shohei practitioners. It is not the whole story. And be careful that what you say does have an offensive tone to it. What you have done is insult anyone and everyone who has a certificate signed by Kanmei and the SOKE. One of which is me, my students, Sensei Mattson, etc.

I really could go on with my side, your side of the argument, but where would it get us? If you are happy with who you study with, then so be it. There are many of us who are extremely pleased with the SOKE and many more of us coming back to the SOKE after being "away" for a little while. The true nature of the instruction will come out in the wash anyway, so let's all just get along huh:-)

Who promoted who aside, my statements above still stand. There is definate question concerning some of the promotions this past event.

yours in budo,

Mike

[Pat]

Mike,

Thank-you for responding. When most people read letters that have insulting tones to them they have a tendency to ignore them and hope they go away.

Your right this is a, My side, Your side argument which can go on forever. But I am curious what is your side or SOKE's side? My understanding was that when Master Uechi died he did want his son to take over, when he was ready. The board would be the governing body and when Kanmei reached a suitable rank he would take over as the head of the organization. But Kanmei felt since he was the son of Master Uechi he should be head of the organization. The power struggle began and the rest is history. Now I'm sorry but just because he was Master Uechi's son and he lived in his house doesn't mean he has the experience. My father played basketball for Syracuse NY when he went to college but yet I can't hit a foul shot to save my life.

So again I would like to hear the other side of the story. I will admit what I know is one sided.

[Bill Glasheen]

Oh my, but isn't juicy hearsay and gossip fun?

I must admit I have mixed feelings about intervening. I work with one of these organizations. I would rather know about this stuff people talk about than tell them to shut up. Heck, I've never heard "the other side" stated quite this way!

I believe there are only a handful of people who know the truth about the history of the Uechi organization just before (yes, even before) and just after Uechi Kanei's death. Most of the rest of us are perpetuating gossip. Especially those who tell you to "Call me, I'll tell you what REALLY happened." So, to what end?

Might I suggest a few operating rules here?

* Deal with facts, not hearsay.

* Address how all of this affects us today.

And remember, Shushiwa must have been an impostor because he wasn't a 10th dan!

- Bill

[mikemurphy]

Pat,

I would rather you hear the story from someone in the know other than from myself who has been piecing it together for several years. Bill sensei is correct in stating that all we are doing is advocating heresy when we chat about things we really know nothing about in a definitive sense.

As for you dad, I'm sorry that he can't hit the foul shot, especially after playing for Syracuse (usually a very good team). However, he could probably teach you how to make one...mmm? Examples aside, I don't know if you have ever met Kanmei-san, but maybe you should reserve your judgement on him until you have had a chance to work with him. I certainly wouldn't make a call on Nakahodo sensei, or Takamiyagi sensei having never worked with them, yet having heard so much about them.

In my opinion, (this may be the big faux paus on my part), whatever the differences were on Okinawa after the death of Master Uechi, the notables should not have broken apart and changed the name. That to me (and no offense to those who train Shohei)is an insult to the memory of Kanbun and Kanei Uechi Senseis. It is my belief that they named the system after Kanbun in honor of him. Would you change the name of the Washington Memorial because a decendant of George was not the same type of guy as our first president? Of course not. Disagreement is not only acceptable, but sometimes healthy. Why the extreme? Ego? Pride? The words we don't want to hear. As students of these proud teachers (whomever they are) we should be working to correct the mistakes our teachers commited (and yes, they made some). The people in VA have been doing it, and so have the folk up here in New England. Why can't everyone else?

Answers???


Yours in budo,

Mike

[Hutch]

Bill Sensei:

Having witnessed the karate and learned the reputations of Senseis Bethoney, Maloney and Durkin, I don't think any witness could deny their fitness for the recently bestowed rank. Like you, I do not know Sensei Earle. But, I am more concerned with process (and the inherent credibility in a given process) or its lack. My understanding has always been that a student must first be recommended for rank by his/her instructor and then be tested by a suitable panel (just as Sensei Mattson recalls it). This seems like a good process with a reasonable chance of producing rankings that are credible to insiders and outsiders.

I am concerned that present and prospective students of Uechi Ryu will be able to view our reward/ranking system positively. I want to be able to state my rank when I am asked to and have a reasonable chance that it will represent a certain standard to those who want to know. I am like many others who think that rank is a convenient "evil". It speaks to non-martial artists and our peers in other stlyes; it gives them some opportunity to objectively measure us without the inconvenience of a demonstration each time (could get messy!). In the end though, it is precisely that; a demonstration, a test, that convinces those who care to know. Rank, when awarded consistently and conscientiously is a sign that that test has taken place.

Rank is irrelavant when you are on the dojo floor or the street facing down an opponent, but it is relevant to those who would be students of the martial arts. If we didn't use belt colours, we would find some other equally obvious ranking system. It is convenient and practical.

Like Sensei Murphy says, it is not my place (or desire) to challenge or judge senior karateka like Uechi Kanmei Sensei; it is my place, and the place of all students, to challenge the ranking process and to do our part to lend it meaning. Only after this question is satisfactorily answered, can we look at other Uechi associations squarely and talk about reuniting under a SOKE banner.

Where do our leaders stand on this?

Peace to all,
Hutch

[Shelly King]

I know on this particular topic I am speaking out of turn.

But I will stick my neck out on the chopping block on this...as someone new to Uechi and as someone who has very quickly come to deeply care...it was my understanding that you must be recommended to test for promotion by who you train under regardless of your current rank (including senior-seniors), that asking to be tested was just something that wasn't done. And to be honest and frank, it bothers me to think someone could go to another dojo, request to test, and be promoted.

Respectfully,



------------------
Shelly

[Phils]

Please consider this a respectful response to the dilemma regarding rank. While the idea of rank can be useful at early stages of training it also may be a hindrance at some stage after black belt and absolutely devastating when coupled with bad judgement. You could eliminate rank altogether? It may be an idea whose time has gone! The contention here is that such a leveling would have a liberating effect on the style.

There are styles, I am thinking particularly of a number of Chinese styles, where there is no notion of belts or rank yet everyone immediately knows who the skilled practitioners are, from beginner to very advanced. Teachers, leaders are recognized and sought out by the students because the student wants to be, wants to move like, wants to acquire that same level of skill. There’s no discussion or argument of worthiness or deserving. It’s rarely discussed that way. Those attaining skill exhibit quality where it counts, quietly in the movement, on physical contact with, or in the art itself.

A step back you say? Ok, an example. Do musicians where belts. Can musicians tell when a concert pianist is playing? Absolutely! If a room of aspiring student beginners were asked to select a teacher after listening to me play ‘chop sticks’ or Mozart a concerto, who do you think they’d choose?

[Gene DeMambro]

Good Evening,

I posted a question a few months back regarding the origin of our ranking system (Kyu-Dan). What I found is that while many schools used such a system in one form or another for years, it was Kano of Judo who standardized the Kyu-Dan system, and promoted his first Shodans in the late 1800s.

Now, Ueshiba(sp) of Aikido gave menkyo certificates for the longest time, until he moved to te Kyu-Dan ranking system. His most senior students, the ones he taught all he could teach, were "grandfather"ed to 8th Dan at he time of the conversion.

In order for Karate to be considered an "official" martial art in Japan, all the schools were directed to adopt the Kyu-Dan ranking system.

So,whether we like it or not; whether we agree with it or not, Kyu-Dan is here to stay. So says the Japanese government.

Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

First things first

Buzzy Durkin is one of the finest all-around people I know. And he is damned lucky to have such a wondeful life-long companion (Judy) to make him an even better person. His success as an instructor is seen in the legions of fine students his dojos produce. And Buzzy doesn't just produce fine karateka, he produces fine human beings.

Jimmy Malone is a warrior chief both in title and in ability. Enough said. He has had a significant impact on the way I practice karate.

Bobby Bethoney has done much to bring Uechi sparring to the attention of the general martial arts community. Without Campbell and Bethoney (both Rabesa sparring proteges, by the way), we probably wouldn't seen the present generation of great American Uechi warriors. Bobby was also my sparring referee on many of my dan tests.

I do not know Charles Earle. I know of him indirectly. Not good enough for personal comment.

Now, to the issue at hand....

Thanks, Mike, for bringing this dicey topic up. And yes, it makes a difference how the seniors and juniors perceive the actions among the senior seniors and S-S-Ss. A karate organization is nothing without the participation of the many who do all the real work and sweat each day. I realize many will be reluctant to comment, but almost everyone will have an opinion (based on facts, hearsay, or a combination thereof).

There are things that I view to be important when it comes to achieving a rank or credential.

1) There should be a process. The process should be there for all to know and see. Without that process, the value of the rank and the motivation behind rewarding it become suspect. What is the process for achieving an 8th dan? Was it known to all before the rank was awarded? Was it a fair process? Did the folks who achieved the rank follow due process?

2) There must be a common understanding of the meaning of a particular rank or level of certification. Does it mean raw ability? Knowledge? Accomplishment? Time in grade? Contribution? Other things? A combination?

3) Character counts. This would include traits such as loyalty, respect for fellow (wo)man, living a life that is in the spirit of budo, setting an example that we want our juniors to aspire to, etc. Do we feel "good" about this? This is such a squishy subject, and I'm not the best judge here (nor necessarily the best example). But I know it is on peoples' collective minds.

I am not necessarily questioning anyone's rank here. But the value and utility of all our ranks rests on these and other principles.

- Bill

[Hutch]

As a lesser-ranked dan student, I had some questions about the recent promotions and was considering sending Sensei Mattson a discrete e-mail. Essentially, I was afraid to voice my questions openly lest it be taken as a sign of disrespect (none is intended). I am greatly encouraged that Sensei Mattson has undertaken to address the matter openly and I think all of the less-than-senior students need to hear more from their teachers on this matter. Clearly, the integrity of rank is called into question when it is awarded inappropriately. When that happens, however difficult it may seem, students need to question the integrity of those responsible. The system must not only have integrity, but must also appear to have integrity, if it is to command the respect of other martial art peers outside of SOKE.

What is the legitimate criteria for very senior rankings? (The specifics are not as critical as the consistentcy of application.)

How is rank awarded at the top of SOKE? Who is responsible for awarding rank to Uechi Kanmei Sensei? Why is he not required to answer for his decisions openly? Are these the issues that have increasingly isolated SOKE from the rest of the Okinawan Uechi community?

These are questions that seem poignant at the moment. I am certain there are many other questions and I certainly don't imagine that I have the answers. I am looking to the most senior students in the system to address these issues with the insights that they have gathered over their many years of study.

I am very proud of North America's senior student; that he has chosen to open this Pandora's box. Let's have some frank and constructive dialogue. The student body needs to hear from its teachers.

Hutch

[Pat]

I am sure this will not boad well with most people out in the Fourm world, but at this point I don't care.

Some people seem to be up in arms about wether or not Kanmei Uechi has the right to promote students at high rank whenever he wants. When in fact, the real issue is being over looked. The real issue is that Kanmei doesn't have the qualifications to promote anyone over the rank of 5th dan let alone 8th. When Master Uechi died and Kanmei decided he was taking over he only held the rank of 5th dan. Going against the Okinawan board he gave himself the title of Master. This is what caused the major split in Okinawa. Any rank that he has given since then over the rank of 5th dan is bogus. Please don't take my word for any of this, look it up yourselves.

Now I'm not saying anyone this weekend who was promoted by Kanmei to 8th dan doesn't deserve it, or does deserve it. I don't know them and I wasn't there for any of the tests. All I'm saying is don't be surprised if Kanmei Uechi hands high ranks out like candy. Everyone apart of his organization brought it upon themselves when they decide to support him durring the split.

[Scaramouche]

Gene,

I've heard you mention before something about martial arts in Japan having to use belt ranks, and I wonder where you get this. For example, I have never seen Sumo wrestlers wearing them, and I'm pretty sure that the Japanese consider sumo a legitimate martial art.

I know a Japanese national who is high up in an organization in Japan that teaches and promotes shootwrestling, a style that combines submission grappling with kickboxing, and I know for a fact that the style does not use belt ranks.

There are a whole number of similar Japanese styles (pancrase, shootfighting, etc), that also don't use belt ranks. All these styles are the basis of matches the public attends in large numbers, and these fights get substantial media coverage. While I can't read Japanese, I've seen long articles (with lots of pictures) which focus on these styles and their matches.

The Japanese national I mentioned also has a few schools in Japan at which Bruce Lee's fighting art is taught (and the Filipino arts, if I'm not mistaken), and I noticed no belts on the students of teachers in the photos I've seen of them training in Japan.

In addition, Muay Thai training exists in Japan (I once saw a Japanese fighter who was trained in Japan fight in Thailand, via ESPN 2), and I am pretty sure that belts are not more used in that style than they are in Thailand, the U.S., or anywhere else it it taught.

Scaramouche

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

Just a comment about "the name change". I believe that the group that separated themselves from the Uechi family were forced into the name change. The Uechi family owns exclusive rights to the Uechi name. And in the end, a rose is a rose by any other name. This has actually come up as a legal issue even outside Okinawa (Argentina as an example). Probably best to let all these old wounds alone. There was plenty of bad behavior all the way around. There's no point rubbing our collective noses in the excrement of human inadequacies.

To All

The subject at hand is weighty enough, and worthy of plenty of attention. It is one that should concern all of the Uechi/Shohei/Kenyukai/pangainoon family.

Whether we like it or not, rank comes into play in the practice of karate. Whether you use a "kyu/dan system or a certificate system or a student/teacher/master system, the labels are extremely important. Every professional body worth its salt has a classification system to protect the consumer. The uneducated need a standard by which to judge someone who hangs a shingle outside a store front on Main Street. Trust me, I was around in the latter '60s and early '70s when any idiot would claim to have knowledge and charge a lot of money to teach crap.

Education has a classification system (instructor, various ranks of professor, etc). Medicine has a classification system (MD, board certification for various specialties). Even the example of music given above has a classification system (where was the person trained, if at all??). No school would be allowed to hire a music instructor who wasn't degreed in some way. Virtually every business has a hierarchy that helps the organization run. And the various styles that were mentioned have individuals that organize events and have some mantle of authority. Today many health clubs and schools that have a karate program explicitly or implicitly require some degree of certification for the teacher. If a student sues a school, you better believe that the plaintiff lawyer is going to ream the defendant and bring in all sorts of expert witnesses to discredit anyone who has not undergone a rank and/or certification process to teach.

When that classification system begins to lose its meaning, everyone suffers.

- Bill