Excellence, details, and other things to b**** about

Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Tue Nov 02, 1999 5:25 am

I got the Sei-louie blues..oh, baby, yeah...

Hey, Bill-san is that some kind of slur on us Canadians????

And I was just about to make some inappropriate comment about brown belts in wedgi-ryu...oops, guess I just did!! :0

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Mary S · Post by **Mary S** » Tue Nov 02, 1999 12:47 pm

Bill-san et al...after a most sleepless night worried about retribution from the South Shore I feel obligated to post this message.

Firstly, I want to say that just because pronounciation if different this in no way means that these practitioners of Uechi-ryu are not studying the same MA...in fact I have been fortunate enough to work out with some of these people, attend their dojo and see them in action. They are extremely good karate-ka!! God knows I have hobbled to the car after attending some of their classes. So I think it should be pointed out that these posts are not intended in any way to make fun of anyone's karate skills and hopefully they will not be interpreted that way.

No offence is meant to anyone.

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Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Nov 02, 1999 1:59 pm

Mary

Speak for yourself. We mean to be offensive!

But seriously....this is all in good fun. A great man :-)) once told me that problems begin when people lose their sense of humor. If we can laugh at ourselves, we can overcome many human inadequacies. This is all about language, and has nothing to do with what goes on when we hit the dojo floor.

In graduate school, I only had one professor in my department that was a "native". Well...actually maybe not. He was from West by god Virginia. Even he "talked funny". My advisor/chairman was Swiss. My physiology instructor was from Paris, and she had the most charming way of butchering common anotomical terms. My computer applications mentor was from India. My biophysics mentor was from Taiwan. My neuromuscular junction mentor was from Korea. My physical chemistry mentor was from Greece. Etc, etc, etc. I got used to it. We all had fun with each other.

In my graduate program as long as you were bringing home the bacon (getting your research funded), then you were part of the family. In karate as long as you sweat, you belong.

No, "glistening" doesn't count.

- Bill

Scott Danziger · Post by **Scott Danziger** » Wed Nov 03, 1999 4:03 am

Someone mentioned using Japanese to be Traditional.

When the Japanese play baseball (American tradition) without ties after the end of the 9th inning I'll "consider" wanting to learn Japanese.

Besides, Uechi ryu (Pangainoon) came from China. How come there isn't anything I've ever heard on technique, etiquette, etc in Chinese? The only of mention of China I've ever heard is the old.. Kanbun went to China to study Chinese boxing, or Kenpo, or Karate, etc... depending on the source... in the Fukien (Fujian) province. He studied from Cho Tzu prostitute or Shushiwa or I thnk there is another name.

Anyway, as an American, I would learn more with English First, then maybe Japanese as an option. I remember how confused I was with the something geri, and something zuki, all the other terms for stikes, blocks and techniques. It's frustrating! And I bet more new people than you think quit over that alone before they can appreciate the art.

I remember asking why should I learn Japanese terms. The answer was in case I ever went to Okinawa. Well, that was 1983 I've still never been there.

If two Uechi schools opened up in Suffolk County (quality/fee being equal) and one used only Japanese terminology and was 2 miles away and one used English and was 15 miles away... I'm gonna be spending a little extra on gas.

Well this is just one of many issues I have been reading here I would like to get my Amoeba opinion out.

Wait till I get started on rank, Okinawa, and the politics.

Scott

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Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Nov 04, 1999 8:46 pm

Scott

You make valid points. And here are my counterpoints:

* We'll stop using Japanese terms for all the techniques when someone can come up with a list of each and every technique and an "agreed upon" English name for it. As I pointed out above, that doesn't exist right now. And this lack of precision in language results in misunderstandings on forums like these. Come up with the complete list, and publish it. Then we can all refer to some document when using "whatever" terminology.

* And so what do I do when I teach Uechi karate in Regensburg Germany? Use the English terms? Ask them to come up with their own names of them? Right now the easiest thing to do is just use the Japanese name. That means Nakahodo can come visit them this week, I can come visit them next week (this actually happened) and all the German dojos will understand.

I don't mean to be condescending, but this has become an international art and it is necessary to have an international language to operate ourside our provincial worlds. If you ever fight international, you will likely come across WKF rules where they use standard Japanese terms. The same goes for boxing in the olympics (although they only say box and stop) or judo competition in the same.

So if you want to use your English language, you or somebody else has his/her work cut out for them. Chances are...the English language will end up absorbing many of the terms. Do you really say knife hand? I bet you already say shuto.

Please, please don't tell me you say karate chop!

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-04-99).]

Scott Danziger · Post by **Scott Danziger** » Fri Nov 05, 1999 2:54 am

Bill,

Point well taken. Since I did learn Uechi while in Bad Kissingen Germany. Though by an American who also taught Germans. But still I had problems grasping the Japanese terms. And yes, we did use "shuto" but we also used "spear hand". We were also tested on paper the japanese terms. It was a one of those match column A with Column B tests.

When asked to do a side snap kick, front kick, one knuckle punch, I had no problem. But when I was told to do a sokuto geri, shomen geri, or some kind of dachi, I was very frustrated. (and usually wrong)

How's this for a teaching idea: First level kyu's (white belts) learn only in their native language (except counting from 1 - 10). The intermediates (all levels of green belt) use their native language with japanese terminology together. Even repeating the instructions during class or testing. ie: Sensei says - Shomen geri/Front Kick, class responds "Shome Geri/Front Kicks". etc...
The Advanced students (all levels Brown) Are instructed in Japanese only but respond with both languages then do the excercise/technique/stance etc.. By Shodan the student should be fully confident to be able to train in any dojo with anyone without fear or apprehension of terminology.

Just a suggestion. I think I would have done much better had I been taught that way.

Scott

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Nov 05, 1999 2:17 pm

Scott

My heart goes out to you; memorization was one of the less pleasant activities in my education. Actually I was always a bit lazy-minded when it came to memory because my analytic skills allowed me to be able to figure most things out without having to memorize. My psychology 101 text (wherever that damn thing is) tells me that good memorizers or those with eidetic (photographic) memories very commonly show weaknesses in the analytic area. Many of those woefully inadequate folks end up in pre-med programs in school and become doctors (jab, jab). Anyhow...I completely relate. That is one reason I happily became a biomedical engineer, and shunned medical school. I couldn't see myself memorizing biochemical pathways and following where the electrons went. Why do that when the damned chart is on the wall? <sigh>

I use the very technique you speak of. When I was teaching at UVa, I could be professorial and demand that people memorize the lists. When I started teaching in suburbia, I encountered rampant protest to the practice. Now even in my kiddy classes I can get them to at least recognize the terms.

Yes, the practice is to say the name of the exercise in whatever foreign language, get them to repeat it, tell the LITERAL English language translation, and then get them to repeat that. Then we do the exercise. Most find the practice palitable.

Actually, kids are the best place to start. Minds are especially plastic in the language-development area when we are very young. This is the only time most people can learn a language without an accent. When we get older, that portion of our brain shuts off. When most people pick up languages in high school, it's actually TOO LATE. Go figure. Yes, I'm making myself a pain in the rear at the school my son attends (at great expense). When number 1 son was in diapers, I used to take him to the gym and have him crawl around while I taught class. He learned to count to ten in Japanese before he learned it in English. They say that even if the kids resist a bit, they have layed the synaptic pathways down and can pick up the language much easier as an adult.

Another thing that experts say helps is the mindset while being exposed to the language. Learning and using the words while game-playing, singing, or acting out are apparently key to activating the right language learning centers of the brain. If you think about it, you could have a lot of fun with that in a karate class.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-05-99).]

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Fri Nov 05, 1999 3:21 pm

[Many of those woefully inadequate folks end up in pre-med programs in school and become doctors (jab, jab)].

Bill Sensei - I think you mean that they become physicians

Regards, Steve

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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu

[This message has been edited by Steve (edited 11-05-99).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Nov 05, 1999 3:26 pm

Steve

I thought it was "a real doctor".

With much appreciation, I stand corrected. You, sir, could never be accused of being provincial.

Actually the term "physican" referrs to a doctor of medicine who is licensed to practice. There were several classmates of mine who did the M.D Ph.D. route (we used to call them mud-fuds because of the sound the letters suggest). Many of them never did internship and residency, and so couldn't be classified as physicians.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-05-99).]

maurice richard libby · Fri Nov 05, 1999 3:57 pm

Scott:

You said: . And yes, we did use "shuto" but we also used "spear hand".

which would be a nukite, since shuto is a 'knife hand' or 'sword hand'. This, I guess, makes somebody's point, but I'm not sure whose ;-).

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
Ronin at large

Shelly King · Post by **Shelly King** » Fri Nov 05, 1999 4:18 pm

Speaking as a lower(very low) rank student...I prefer to learn the Japanese terminology from the beginning. In class, sensei first says the Japanese term and then follows it by the English. And Bill is correct about the analytical thing...Sensei is very quick to point out, to be able to learn all the hojo undo, you really only need to know 4 or 5 words and you can figure all 16 of them out. Of course, he is an engineer too. And all engineers know, it's our jargon that keeps our profession separate from the "others". The important thing is to be consistent. From what I've seen, most people can pickup enough of the basic terms to figure most things out within the first month. I really don't see what the big deal is about using them. In music, you use the French and Italian words to describe the beat, flow, etc.

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Shelly

Scott Danziger · Post by **Scott Danziger** » Sat Nov 06, 1999 1:00 am

Maurice,

I didn't mean to imply that a shuto and spear hand where the same. Some techniques I only know the english words and some the Japanese words. For example if you said show me a ridge hand - no problem. If you said the Japanese word for it I wouldn't know. For example, the 3 spear hand strikes in Kanshu - I would have to look up the Japanese term. As I am typing right now I have no idea the Japanese term.

To better illustrate would be Evan's forum. I would love to learn Kyosho strikes but gall bladder 24 and liver 37 are all Greek to me. I would be more interested in reading about it with terms like 2 inches above the left earlobe or 3 inches below the naval. It frustrates me. And if I were to get a chart just to follow along I would still be frustrated and feel it is a lot of work just to read a paragraph or two.

If I was to hear/read every time that gall bladder 102 is the left portion of the right pinky toe, after a while I would finally remember it.

I would never make it as a physician.

Scott