Folks
Without going into a lot of details.....thanks. There's a lot in the previous thread. I may be making more of a deal out of this than necessary, but then I thought it was a good opportunity for everyone to see reality concerning events like that. It makes you want to throw your TV away.
I have avoided saying much directly to people. Each has had his/her own contribution. All points of view expressed so far have been perfectly appropriate and - in my view - an important part of the tapestry of such an event. Each one gets a little bit different kind of reaction out of me. I'm not going to go there; the last thing I want to do is stifle the general reaction. But I think two or more out there understand this whole thing (the head game) profoundly.
Now...time to be debriefed by the master.
- Bill
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
And now to respond to J.D. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
1) I was going to unfold the knife with one hand. I can do this with one hand. I was going to open the cell phone with the other hand and dial 911. No problem there. I was then going to make it very obvious through the window what I was doing. Deterrence, deterrence, deterrence.
2) If he was stupid enough to beat on the window, then I was going to drop the knife which was in the right hand, and continue with the phone in the left (if I could, as long as I was able, until I finished the call). I was going to put the car in gear and back out (hopefully not running over someone behind me). I would then have easily been able to leave - even with him hanging on the van (his mistake).
But....these - I believe - are very far-fetched possibilities.
- Bill
I had no doubt whatsoever here. Once I was in the car, locked the door, and turned the engine on, this was my plan.Provoking questions to Bill. I wonder what he would do if the person approached his car?
1) I was going to unfold the knife with one hand. I can do this with one hand. I was going to open the cell phone with the other hand and dial 911. No problem there. I was then going to make it very obvious through the window what I was doing. Deterrence, deterrence, deterrence.
2) If he was stupid enough to beat on the window, then I was going to drop the knife which was in the right hand, and continue with the phone in the left (if I could, as long as I was able, until I finished the call). I was going to put the car in gear and back out (hopefully not running over someone behind me). I would then have easily been able to leave - even with him hanging on the van (his mistake).
But....these - I believe - are very far-fetched possibilities.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
1] was did guy much bigger and stronger than you! What was the size disparity?
He was about my height, and stronger/heavier. He was not young, but not old. Maybe late thirties.
2] Did you keep him under observation as he worked out? Did he out power you in pumping iron?
3] Did his strength concern you at all?
I need to qualify these answers.
I first started training with weights in 1966 when my parents bought me a Ted-Williams-endorsed Sears weight set. I got formal training at Exeter in 1971. I got more training in 1985 from John Gamble, former heavyweight powerlifting champion. Then I married a body builder. I've been weight training in gyms for years. I've done the ego thing. Been there, done that. I'm strong, but not that strong. I know my limits, and respect them.
I also know I'm over the peak of my strength in life. Lately I've stopped trying to top my personal best in exercises like the bench and the free-weight squat. Now I'm into things like dumbbell bench presses, power cleans, walking lunges, and other sophisticated exercises in conjunction with "the basics". I'm now - more and more - relegating my weight training to a means to an end rather than the end itself. The focus now is on the quality of my strength and neuromuscular makeup. I could go on... I won't.
I also train karate, and I teach karate. I take pride in the fact that two of my "best candidates" in New England dan tests were 5' 3" women. To me, size and strength are important, but not necessary. To me, my skill as a karate instructor is reflected in my ability to teach otherwise ordinary people to do extraordinary things. I am fascinated by that whole concept. Two of my better - and fiercest - martial arts instructors were smaller men. One of them was special forces and killed more than one person by hand.
I have also been spending a LOT of time recently with Tony - a 6' 3", 310 pound judoka who is training Uechi with us. He has been my personal partner a lot on Thursdays for the past year. Tony is the flip side of the coin to my fascination for teaching the ordinary to be extraordinary. He is my chance to have ME experience what it's like to have my smaller people go up against larger opponents.
So...I respect size and strength. But I'm not intimidated by it.
Now, to answer your questions.
When he and I were on the same Lat machine, I noted matter-of-factly that he was doing more weight than I was. He and I were doing slightly different exercises, but I got the general idea of "where he was". He was significantly stronger. But he was not extraordinarily stronger. I also noted that he would be watching me and noting what I was doing. I was aware of it, but not concerned by it.
Actually, I like being underestimated in such situations. I take great pride in the fact that you can put a white shirt and tie on me an think I'm just another lean guy. I play that card a lot. I used to play that card when a policeman would pull me over when I was speeding. I never tried to hide the tremor in my hands when I turned my license over to the policeman. It makes them think I respect - and even fear - them. I believe it puts them at ease and makes them think I'm not a jerk. I know I have gotten out of more than one ticket by playing the "scared, sincere" bit. Hey, I'm not proud...
So....I was well aware that there was "sizing up" going on at the machine. Hey, I've been doing this for years. It's human nature. I made no attempt to hide anything. I didn't mind having him underestimate me so that if he wanted to confront me physically, his guard would be down. I've "played stupid" in "potential" fights before, and it's saved my butt. As I said, I'm not proud. And I now comfortably work within my limits. With age (45) comes a little bit of wisdom.
But once we were off the lat machine, I only paid attention to his general whereabout. Otherwise, I was in my "Zen mind" mode. I get possessed during a weight workout. A masters champion here at my gym taught me the importance of being intense, and getting all the work done in an hour. So I quickly go from exercise to exercise - always panting a little - and focus on the job at hand. I knew it would make me feel better. I hate that feeling when you have the typical male confrontation. Working hard served two purposes. It put my revving engine to work so I wouldn't mentally self-destruct. And...it made me have a great workout.
At the time, I was aware of - but not concerned by - the fact that I was exhausting my upper body. As I stated before, I was warmed up from a karate workout. I had just spent 90 minutes with a high school senior. It was just enough to get me warmed up and ready to go. Right now I'm nearing the end of a training cycle (the whole periodization thing). I can kill myself in a workout, and still have something left. I was aware that my legs would be just fine, and my upper body would be loose again after my requisite warm-down stretch.
But...I guess I need to be honest here. After I did one of my biceps sets, I noted again where he was. He was nearby. I do....respectably...with a set of dumbbells on my biceps. I do them in a way that nobody can do them. Thanks, John Gamble! I noted just after my last set that he was watching me. And I have to admit, I thought in my head take that, M***** F*****! It fit right in with my intense mode. Only at that moment. Shame on me! Snicker, snicker. Bad boy!
Did I watch him and what weights he was doing after the lat machine? Absolutely not. I had work to do. I was in my mode. Screw the rest of the world. And....this whole "possession" thing of mine may have been what got him riled in the first place. The regulars know me and love me for who I am. They all know I'm a "screamer". Yup, Bill's in the gym! That's what I'm there for. Someone new - and insecure - might take me the wrong way when we cross paths. I'm aware of that, but I can't be concerned by it.
4] did you find yourself positive about being able to handle him with your martial arts skills alone without doubts surfacing in your mind?
Van, I've had some VERY good instruction. Two people in particular (Hiroshi Hamada and Steven King) trained the tiger in me. I know I may lose in a fight. Hamada taught me that if you lose, to make him remember you. King (the former green beret) taught me to train hard, do your best, and accept your fate when the time comes. That is very empowering in a tough situation. Whenever those "situations" occur, I find it easier and easier to embrace the feelings they trained in me. I become a very different person. Competition helps too. Having worked out with the likes of Marty Dow and having had Manny Neves as a partner for my godan and, and, and,.... You get the idea.
Did I have any doubts? Absolutely. Did I let them overwhelm me? No. At many, many points in that evening, I was tapping into all the many coping mechanisms I have learned in my life....without even thinking about it.
5] did you find yourself conjuring up some techniques? Did you feel comfortable about the use of pressure points, kyusho points at your disposal?
Was I thinking about specific techniques? No. I have learned from tournaments to never do that. It only freezes your mind up. When you look at yourself on film later on, you find that your fixed mind missed out on many great opportunities.
Did I have a general game plan? Absolutely. Yes, I was sizing him up. It didn't take long. He was strong, but he was no Tony. IF he used his empty-handed mode, he was definitely going to come at me with his upper body. And me? Legs. I kept thinking about my legs and his legs. He would be in for a real surprise.... Long range, and I brutalize his knees or thighs. Short range, and I go for knee thrusts or those "dumping" moves in sanseiryu (that Bobby taught me). Maybe even employ some foot stomps (long story here). I was going to play to his weakness. I didn't need to kill him - just take the fight out of him.
Was I thinking "kyusho" techniques? Well...yes and no. It depends on what you mean.
I am not Evan Pantazi. I don't embrace eastern medicine. I don't identify with chi or accupuncture points. On the other hand, I have a Ph.D. with a specialization in systems physiology. And I have done things with my body for years. Evan and I think alike in that we will try to choose our targets wisely. I was thinking back of the knee - for example. Reflex point. Make his leg buckle so I could follow through. A moron could hit that. Wide stance? I wouldn't be able to resist.... If he grabbed me, yes I might have beaten his arm at specific points before bludgeoning the side of his jaw with all of my arm or elbow (and 100% of my body behind it). Or maybe a nikkyo might come out of nowhere. I had just been working on that earlier in the evening. Etc.
6] Psychologically were you confident you could take the guy in a dragged out fight alone in a dark parking lot?
Yes. But I wanted every advantage. After he followed me, he really threw me into a very primal mode. The game was now very different. Ego time was over. That's why he (I) grabbed the knife and the cell phone.
7] did you feel any fear at all?
Yes. But I was fully prepared for this. I know it, understand it, have studied it, read about it, have experienced it, and embrace it. DeBecker says it all in the title of his book The Gift of Fear. I know I won't be at my best, and that there will be some things that just plain don't work. I know my small motor coordination goes to hell - much worse than for others who don't have the tremor I have. Thankfully I had shoes on so I knew I didn't have to worry about the sweaty feet I get under stress. That's fine, I've learned to write this stuff off. I embrace the fear for whatever else it gives me: power, fierceness, focus, mental acuity, and no pain.
8] Were you thinking of defending against a sudden attack or were you thinking preemptive strikes if he closed the distance on you?
I was going with the flow. I didn't want to "think" too much. I just wanted to be ready. I have no earthly idea what I would have done. Once he followed me, I didn't even have time to plan too much. I don't want to think about it. He put me in a very, very nasty mode when he followed me out of the building. I don't "identify" with that person (within me) very well. And I don't want to constrain him either when the s*** hits the fan. But I do know that certain actions of my "opponents" trigger totally automatic actions in me. I have accidentally nailed people before in fierce sparring matches without consciously doing the movements. Some of you senior seniors saw me do this once in the sparring match of my yondan test (Bethony's dojo, with Bethony referreeing). It hard to explain... I think you understand. If my life depended on it, I would want him to be there with no constraints.
9] Do you think you could have used the knife if he had overpowered you just physically without weapons?
That question is not very clear. Could I have handled myself with a knife? Yes. It's actually a scary proposition. I've catheterized every major artery and vein in a dog's body, and know where they are on humans. I know where all the muscles and tendons are. The knife I had couldn't cause a pneumothorax (it was 2 3/4 ", hooked, with searrations), but then again it looked an awful lot like a larger version of something I might have used in surgery. Scary thought...
Could I have mentally allowed myself to use it? Damned good question. I don't know, and I don't think I ever will know. This is a big gap in my mental resolution of it all. If my life depended on it, I hope so. If he came out, I'm scared to think about what I would have done to him. All bets are off. Send lawyers, guns, and money, the s*** has hit the fan.... I know what comes out when I do my "one steps" with the wooden knife.
10] were you concerned he might have taken the knife away from you and cut you with it?
Not really. Long story. I guess I should explain.
First of all, I don't think he would have known what to do with the knife I had in my hand. An untrained person wouldn't know 1/100th of what I would know with that wierd, hooked thing. But take my knowledge of the body, my surgical experience, my martial knowledge, and Raffi's training, and.... It's scary. Raffi knows.... But, This was NOT a stabbing knife. Would he know how to slash with it? Most wouldn't. It was a good weapon to have "out there".
Another thing. As Raffi states again and again, if you are facing someone with a knife, you are going to get cut - period. I accept that.
Do I think I might have lost it in a fight? Absolutely. Steven King taught me well in this arena. He used to have us take our kobudo weapons and do free-for-all sparring sessions. He used to take the shinai and freely beat us with it. Ouch!! King taught - actually repeated it over and over again - to never rely on a weapon. In fact one of his favorite "tricks" was to give the weapon to his opponent and then take advantage of the half second or so when the person was dumbfounded.
Would I have felt very differently with a chambered Glock in my hand? Yes. Any fool could fire that.
But in the words of Yogi Berra, It ain't over until it's over. I would not have freezed mentally if the odds turned against me. Thanks to many who have worked with me over the years.
And....those are my raw thoughts, for better or for worse.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-24-99).]
He was about my height, and stronger/heavier. He was not young, but not old. Maybe late thirties.
2] Did you keep him under observation as he worked out? Did he out power you in pumping iron?
3] Did his strength concern you at all?
I need to qualify these answers.
I first started training with weights in 1966 when my parents bought me a Ted-Williams-endorsed Sears weight set. I got formal training at Exeter in 1971. I got more training in 1985 from John Gamble, former heavyweight powerlifting champion. Then I married a body builder. I've been weight training in gyms for years. I've done the ego thing. Been there, done that. I'm strong, but not that strong. I know my limits, and respect them.
I also know I'm over the peak of my strength in life. Lately I've stopped trying to top my personal best in exercises like the bench and the free-weight squat. Now I'm into things like dumbbell bench presses, power cleans, walking lunges, and other sophisticated exercises in conjunction with "the basics". I'm now - more and more - relegating my weight training to a means to an end rather than the end itself. The focus now is on the quality of my strength and neuromuscular makeup. I could go on... I won't.
I also train karate, and I teach karate. I take pride in the fact that two of my "best candidates" in New England dan tests were 5' 3" women. To me, size and strength are important, but not necessary. To me, my skill as a karate instructor is reflected in my ability to teach otherwise ordinary people to do extraordinary things. I am fascinated by that whole concept. Two of my better - and fiercest - martial arts instructors were smaller men. One of them was special forces and killed more than one person by hand.
I have also been spending a LOT of time recently with Tony - a 6' 3", 310 pound judoka who is training Uechi with us. He has been my personal partner a lot on Thursdays for the past year. Tony is the flip side of the coin to my fascination for teaching the ordinary to be extraordinary. He is my chance to have ME experience what it's like to have my smaller people go up against larger opponents.
So...I respect size and strength. But I'm not intimidated by it.
Now, to answer your questions.
When he and I were on the same Lat machine, I noted matter-of-factly that he was doing more weight than I was. He and I were doing slightly different exercises, but I got the general idea of "where he was". He was significantly stronger. But he was not extraordinarily stronger. I also noted that he would be watching me and noting what I was doing. I was aware of it, but not concerned by it.
Actually, I like being underestimated in such situations. I take great pride in the fact that you can put a white shirt and tie on me an think I'm just another lean guy. I play that card a lot. I used to play that card when a policeman would pull me over when I was speeding. I never tried to hide the tremor in my hands when I turned my license over to the policeman. It makes them think I respect - and even fear - them. I believe it puts them at ease and makes them think I'm not a jerk. I know I have gotten out of more than one ticket by playing the "scared, sincere" bit. Hey, I'm not proud...
So....I was well aware that there was "sizing up" going on at the machine. Hey, I've been doing this for years. It's human nature. I made no attempt to hide anything. I didn't mind having him underestimate me so that if he wanted to confront me physically, his guard would be down. I've "played stupid" in "potential" fights before, and it's saved my butt. As I said, I'm not proud. And I now comfortably work within my limits. With age (45) comes a little bit of wisdom.
But once we were off the lat machine, I only paid attention to his general whereabout. Otherwise, I was in my "Zen mind" mode. I get possessed during a weight workout. A masters champion here at my gym taught me the importance of being intense, and getting all the work done in an hour. So I quickly go from exercise to exercise - always panting a little - and focus on the job at hand. I knew it would make me feel better. I hate that feeling when you have the typical male confrontation. Working hard served two purposes. It put my revving engine to work so I wouldn't mentally self-destruct. And...it made me have a great workout.
At the time, I was aware of - but not concerned by - the fact that I was exhausting my upper body. As I stated before, I was warmed up from a karate workout. I had just spent 90 minutes with a high school senior. It was just enough to get me warmed up and ready to go. Right now I'm nearing the end of a training cycle (the whole periodization thing). I can kill myself in a workout, and still have something left. I was aware that my legs would be just fine, and my upper body would be loose again after my requisite warm-down stretch.
But...I guess I need to be honest here. After I did one of my biceps sets, I noted again where he was. He was nearby. I do....respectably...with a set of dumbbells on my biceps. I do them in a way that nobody can do them. Thanks, John Gamble! I noted just after my last set that he was watching me. And I have to admit, I thought in my head take that, M***** F*****! It fit right in with my intense mode. Only at that moment. Shame on me! Snicker, snicker. Bad boy!
Did I watch him and what weights he was doing after the lat machine? Absolutely not. I had work to do. I was in my mode. Screw the rest of the world. And....this whole "possession" thing of mine may have been what got him riled in the first place. The regulars know me and love me for who I am. They all know I'm a "screamer". Yup, Bill's in the gym! That's what I'm there for. Someone new - and insecure - might take me the wrong way when we cross paths. I'm aware of that, but I can't be concerned by it.
4] did you find yourself positive about being able to handle him with your martial arts skills alone without doubts surfacing in your mind?
Van, I've had some VERY good instruction. Two people in particular (Hiroshi Hamada and Steven King) trained the tiger in me. I know I may lose in a fight. Hamada taught me that if you lose, to make him remember you. King (the former green beret) taught me to train hard, do your best, and accept your fate when the time comes. That is very empowering in a tough situation. Whenever those "situations" occur, I find it easier and easier to embrace the feelings they trained in me. I become a very different person. Competition helps too. Having worked out with the likes of Marty Dow and having had Manny Neves as a partner for my godan and, and, and,.... You get the idea.
Did I have any doubts? Absolutely. Did I let them overwhelm me? No. At many, many points in that evening, I was tapping into all the many coping mechanisms I have learned in my life....without even thinking about it.
5] did you find yourself conjuring up some techniques? Did you feel comfortable about the use of pressure points, kyusho points at your disposal?
Was I thinking about specific techniques? No. I have learned from tournaments to never do that. It only freezes your mind up. When you look at yourself on film later on, you find that your fixed mind missed out on many great opportunities.
Did I have a general game plan? Absolutely. Yes, I was sizing him up. It didn't take long. He was strong, but he was no Tony. IF he used his empty-handed mode, he was definitely going to come at me with his upper body. And me? Legs. I kept thinking about my legs and his legs. He would be in for a real surprise.... Long range, and I brutalize his knees or thighs. Short range, and I go for knee thrusts or those "dumping" moves in sanseiryu (that Bobby taught me). Maybe even employ some foot stomps (long story here). I was going to play to his weakness. I didn't need to kill him - just take the fight out of him.
Was I thinking "kyusho" techniques? Well...yes and no. It depends on what you mean.
I am not Evan Pantazi. I don't embrace eastern medicine. I don't identify with chi or accupuncture points. On the other hand, I have a Ph.D. with a specialization in systems physiology. And I have done things with my body for years. Evan and I think alike in that we will try to choose our targets wisely. I was thinking back of the knee - for example. Reflex point. Make his leg buckle so I could follow through. A moron could hit that. Wide stance? I wouldn't be able to resist.... If he grabbed me, yes I might have beaten his arm at specific points before bludgeoning the side of his jaw with all of my arm or elbow (and 100% of my body behind it). Or maybe a nikkyo might come out of nowhere. I had just been working on that earlier in the evening. Etc.
6] Psychologically were you confident you could take the guy in a dragged out fight alone in a dark parking lot?
Yes. But I wanted every advantage. After he followed me, he really threw me into a very primal mode. The game was now very different. Ego time was over. That's why he (I) grabbed the knife and the cell phone.
7] did you feel any fear at all?
Yes. But I was fully prepared for this. I know it, understand it, have studied it, read about it, have experienced it, and embrace it. DeBecker says it all in the title of his book The Gift of Fear. I know I won't be at my best, and that there will be some things that just plain don't work. I know my small motor coordination goes to hell - much worse than for others who don't have the tremor I have. Thankfully I had shoes on so I knew I didn't have to worry about the sweaty feet I get under stress. That's fine, I've learned to write this stuff off. I embrace the fear for whatever else it gives me: power, fierceness, focus, mental acuity, and no pain.
8] Were you thinking of defending against a sudden attack or were you thinking preemptive strikes if he closed the distance on you?
I was going with the flow. I didn't want to "think" too much. I just wanted to be ready. I have no earthly idea what I would have done. Once he followed me, I didn't even have time to plan too much. I don't want to think about it. He put me in a very, very nasty mode when he followed me out of the building. I don't "identify" with that person (within me) very well. And I don't want to constrain him either when the s*** hits the fan. But I do know that certain actions of my "opponents" trigger totally automatic actions in me. I have accidentally nailed people before in fierce sparring matches without consciously doing the movements. Some of you senior seniors saw me do this once in the sparring match of my yondan test (Bethony's dojo, with Bethony referreeing). It hard to explain... I think you understand. If my life depended on it, I would want him to be there with no constraints.
9] Do you think you could have used the knife if he had overpowered you just physically without weapons?
That question is not very clear. Could I have handled myself with a knife? Yes. It's actually a scary proposition. I've catheterized every major artery and vein in a dog's body, and know where they are on humans. I know where all the muscles and tendons are. The knife I had couldn't cause a pneumothorax (it was 2 3/4 ", hooked, with searrations), but then again it looked an awful lot like a larger version of something I might have used in surgery. Scary thought...
Could I have mentally allowed myself to use it? Damned good question. I don't know, and I don't think I ever will know. This is a big gap in my mental resolution of it all. If my life depended on it, I hope so. If he came out, I'm scared to think about what I would have done to him. All bets are off. Send lawyers, guns, and money, the s*** has hit the fan.... I know what comes out when I do my "one steps" with the wooden knife.
10] were you concerned he might have taken the knife away from you and cut you with it?
Not really. Long story. I guess I should explain.
First of all, I don't think he would have known what to do with the knife I had in my hand. An untrained person wouldn't know 1/100th of what I would know with that wierd, hooked thing. But take my knowledge of the body, my surgical experience, my martial knowledge, and Raffi's training, and.... It's scary. Raffi knows.... But, This was NOT a stabbing knife. Would he know how to slash with it? Most wouldn't. It was a good weapon to have "out there".
Another thing. As Raffi states again and again, if you are facing someone with a knife, you are going to get cut - period. I accept that.
Do I think I might have lost it in a fight? Absolutely. Steven King taught me well in this arena. He used to have us take our kobudo weapons and do free-for-all sparring sessions. He used to take the shinai and freely beat us with it. Ouch!! King taught - actually repeated it over and over again - to never rely on a weapon. In fact one of his favorite "tricks" was to give the weapon to his opponent and then take advantage of the half second or so when the person was dumbfounded.
Would I have felt very differently with a chambered Glock in my hand? Yes. Any fool could fire that.
But in the words of Yogi Berra, It ain't over until it's over. I would not have freezed mentally if the odds turned against me. Thanks to many who have worked with me over the years.
And....those are my raw thoughts, for better or for worse.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-24-99).]
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Dr. Glasheen Sensei:
My profound respect and thanks for your unflinching baring of your experience to us. I am aware you have done it both for us and for yourself. I have found it useful and illuminating. You were aware. You were ready. You did not push it into a physical conflict yourself. Ergo: you won. Period.
Accept one cyber-bow, Sensei.
Your reference to the the mind/body set of combat readiness as the Other, as Him reminded me of an interview with Bruce Lee. When asked how he would handle the legal aftermath of whupping someone's butt he said (caveat lector - quoting from a *fallible* memory) that he'd blame it one "him": the automatic/semi-conscious/unconscious/reflexive/unthinking
reactive state. I understand that this is not "blame" in the current victimization vogue; it is an explanation, an illumination, an elucidation.
An impertinent question, sir: are you an MD, DVM, PhD? From context herein I gather that you are at least 5th Dan in Karate, presumably Uechi or Goju.
At any rate, take a little extra helping today of protein and carbs (watch the fats {HA!}); you deserve it.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and all readers herein!
Student
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-25-99).]
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-25-99).]
My profound respect and thanks for your unflinching baring of your experience to us. I am aware you have done it both for us and for yourself. I have found it useful and illuminating. You were aware. You were ready. You did not push it into a physical conflict yourself. Ergo: you won. Period.
Accept one cyber-bow, Sensei.
Your reference to the the mind/body set of combat readiness as the Other, as Him reminded me of an interview with Bruce Lee. When asked how he would handle the legal aftermath of whupping someone's butt he said (caveat lector - quoting from a *fallible* memory) that he'd blame it one "him": the automatic/semi-conscious/unconscious/reflexive/unthinking
reactive state. I understand that this is not "blame" in the current victimization vogue; it is an explanation, an illumination, an elucidation.
An impertinent question, sir: are you an MD, DVM, PhD? From context herein I gather that you are at least 5th Dan in Karate, presumably Uechi or Goju.
At any rate, take a little extra helping today of protein and carbs (watch the fats {HA!}); you deserve it.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and all readers herein!
Student
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-25-99).]
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-25-99).]
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Bill,
I applaud your “ self examination” --not many of us have what it takes to tell it like it is!
Yet in my investigations of similar incidents experts in psychiatry have opined that in the aftermath the brain will always distort to rationalize and that a person would act totally different in the actual confrontation, despite what he might think his response would have been after a “talk” with himself post traumatic event!
That is not to say, mind you, that your response would been inadequate, quite the contrary; that crazy guy inside of you might have done the unspeakable, with you furtively enjoying another out of body experience!
Yet these “self debriefings” are mandatory to refine your “programming”!
The experience is proving to be somewhat chilling for most readers when they slowly realize that punk was actually stalking you, and that you knew it early in the evening!
With this in mind, did you think tactically in the sense of exiting through a back door and leaving the guy to wonder how he “lost” you? Or did pride prevent this course of action!
Can you think of some way you could have turned the tables on him? Smile.
Provoking question: have you changed your mind about having a more serious weapon available? What if the “steroid” freak came in pairs that night, you know “ pumping partners”
What would you have done differently?
And pay no attention to the “lotus eaters” responses!
------------------
Van Canna
I applaud your “ self examination” --not many of us have what it takes to tell it like it is!
Yet in my investigations of similar incidents experts in psychiatry have opined that in the aftermath the brain will always distort to rationalize and that a person would act totally different in the actual confrontation, despite what he might think his response would have been after a “talk” with himself post traumatic event!
That is not to say, mind you, that your response would been inadequate, quite the contrary; that crazy guy inside of you might have done the unspeakable, with you furtively enjoying another out of body experience!
Yet these “self debriefings” are mandatory to refine your “programming”!
The experience is proving to be somewhat chilling for most readers when they slowly realize that punk was actually stalking you, and that you knew it early in the evening!
With this in mind, did you think tactically in the sense of exiting through a back door and leaving the guy to wonder how he “lost” you? Or did pride prevent this course of action!
Can you think of some way you could have turned the tables on him? Smile.
Provoking question: have you changed your mind about having a more serious weapon available? What if the “steroid” freak came in pairs that night, you know “ pumping partners”
What would you have done differently?
And pay no attention to the “lotus eaters” responses!
------------------
Van Canna
-
RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Bill sensei made a comment in the earlier thread that set off my personal alarm but I was waiting for one of the seniors to pick up on it. This was regarding the possible 'display' of the black wooden training gun Bill had gotten from me.
Never brandish any weapon that might be mistaken by a person for a real firearm. In the darkness of the parking lot it may have led to a lethal escalation.
I have been training in low light and very low light tactics in the last few weeks as well as the problems involved with identifying a threat and acting on it if necessary. Darkness and distance are difficult to deal with. The 'toy' in question would look sufficiently authentic in the dark at some distance to cause me to be ready to escalate to the next level in the force continuum.
Quite a few people 'carry' in Virginia, legally and otherwise. Also, few have had any training. Bill's predator might have had a firearm in his gym bag or in his vehicle and we would be reading about this in the daily news instead of the forum.
Van sensei: Any comment on this?
Rich
Never brandish any weapon that might be mistaken by a person for a real firearm. In the darkness of the parking lot it may have led to a lethal escalation.
I have been training in low light and very low light tactics in the last few weeks as well as the problems involved with identifying a threat and acting on it if necessary. Darkness and distance are difficult to deal with. The 'toy' in question would look sufficiently authentic in the dark at some distance to cause me to be ready to escalate to the next level in the force continuum.
Quite a few people 'carry' in Virginia, legally and otherwise. Also, few have had any training. Bill's predator might have had a firearm in his gym bag or in his vehicle and we would be reading about this in the daily news instead of the forum.
Van sensei: Any comment on this?
Rich
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Rich,
I investigated a sad case once when a security guard was cut down by a shotgun blast when he went for a fake gun during a holdup!
Bottom line is, you either carry a serious weapon and learn the whys, hows, and whens to display it or you forget it about it and take your chances with empty hands!
Attorney Andrew Branca, in his Book “ the law of self defense” points out that perception is the key! If Bill had pulled the fake gun for display purposes, although not intending to commit battery with it, he would still, technically, have placed the approaching tormentor in fear of an imminent battery upon his perception of a real handgun. Thus Bill would have been charged with assault even if he survived a measured response by the freak.
The irony is that, had the s** head then pulled his own gun and shot Bill, he could probably get away with a claim of self-defense! Police use the “ precognition” defense in similar circumstances.
Attorney Branca further explains that we all run the risk of being charged with assault any time we allow a potential attacker to conclude that we are prepared to commit battery in order to protect ourselves based on words alone “ don’t get out of your car or I’ll kick you right back in it” [something I said once]…. or by our compromising gestures, such as getting in some karate stance or reaching under our coats as if to go for a weapon!
All good reasons to slap your mouth shut when being interviewed by responding officers in the aftermath of any confrontation!
------------------
Van Canna
I investigated a sad case once when a security guard was cut down by a shotgun blast when he went for a fake gun during a holdup!
Bottom line is, you either carry a serious weapon and learn the whys, hows, and whens to display it or you forget it about it and take your chances with empty hands!
Attorney Andrew Branca, in his Book “ the law of self defense” points out that perception is the key! If Bill had pulled the fake gun for display purposes, although not intending to commit battery with it, he would still, technically, have placed the approaching tormentor in fear of an imminent battery upon his perception of a real handgun. Thus Bill would have been charged with assault even if he survived a measured response by the freak.
The irony is that, had the s** head then pulled his own gun and shot Bill, he could probably get away with a claim of self-defense! Police use the “ precognition” defense in similar circumstances.
Attorney Branca further explains that we all run the risk of being charged with assault any time we allow a potential attacker to conclude that we are prepared to commit battery in order to protect ourselves based on words alone “ don’t get out of your car or I’ll kick you right back in it” [something I said once]…. or by our compromising gestures, such as getting in some karate stance or reaching under our coats as if to go for a weapon!
All good reasons to slap your mouth shut when being interviewed by responding officers in the aftermath of any confrontation!
------------------
Van Canna
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Rich
If you read further on my comments about the wooden training gun, you will see that I thought better of playing the bluff. Actually I didn't even think of it at the time of the incident; it was only later on that I mused over the possibility. I alluded to there being good reasons why I wouldn't want to play that "theoretical" card. The both of you stated the very reasons I was thinking of. No, I absolutely would not have wanted to go there. Yes, I always consider - in the state of Virginia - that someone might be "packing heat." I would never pull a weapon out anyhow unless I was willing to use it if things went very bad. Worry not, Rich. I'm not that stupid.
Van
There was only one exit out of the club that was not a fire exit. Yes, instinctively my defenses were up. No, I couldn't consciously rationalize that he would do something like follow me out of the club...until the club was closing and he was near the exit watching the TV. Reminds me - once again - of stuff I've read about in DeBecker. Males in particular are very, very bad about this.
What I was attempting to do was look for someone to notify about the "situation" - even about 10 minutes after the verbal exchange in front of the lat machine. All I was going to do was say "Hey, I just got into an arguement with so-and-so...I just needed to tell someone just in case." I saw several people I knew, even one person I'm close to. I wasn't able to get anyone to stop long enough to do anything more than the usual forearm bump (while going from one machine to the next) or comments about mindless stuff. The next morning I talked to my buddy (another martial artist) who I had seen at the club. He was mad (in a very nice way) that I didn't tell him. "I would have covered your back, man!" And he would have. I guess we all were busy trying to get our stuff done and I had rationalized that the incident was over.
Actually, Van, I do unusual things as a matter of course. I make a conscious effort to not be too predictable with my routines. As an example, I make it a point to take half a dozen different ways home, and freely alternate among them. This and many other things are part of my own "force continuum." But in this particular case, any alternate way out of the building may have set off a fire alarm. Most gymnasiums do this to keep people from slipping their buddies in the gym for free.
And what would I have done if I was facing double trouble? I guess that depends... If the fellow began to converse with someone in the evening as if he were a training partner, then I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to rationalize that the situation would go no further. I would likely have picked one of several options, including ending my workout and talking with my friend, or going to the front desk and making a phone call. Now if I were suddenly faced with two people out in the parking lot, well then I guess I would have been a lot less hesitant about being very, very nasty. Yes, I still would have turned around and looked directly at both of them - but not in a challenging way. I then would have "casually but efficiently" made my way directly to the van front door (never showing that I was intimidated), and would only have changed my route and intent if an assault was imminent.
An added comment
In doing the debriefing thing, I picked up on something that nobody else has commented on yet. When I actually put the age of the individual down, it suddenly dawned on me that this was not the "typical" profile of a steroid user. That bothered me a bit...because I truly believed this person's behavior was not normal. Yes, he could have had a bad day (argument with his girlfriend, boss, neighbor, etc.). But this "felt" like something very, very different. I can't articulate this well; I'm going on gut feelings.
I've had several incidents in my life where I ran across bullies with this type of abnormal agression. I mentioned several incidents in UVa weight rooms. I now know someone who used to hang out with several of these crowds (he actually always was a decent person). I was able to validate that the "hotheads" were on a multiple steroid regime. Actually it was very obvious, but I just wanted to confirm it.
Even earlier than that, I once had a waiter at a restaurant get "wierd" on me (circa 1978), and finally challenge me to a fight (with my girlfriend there watching the whole thing). I refused the fight, and later on got the guy fired (actually an entertaining story all its own). He was re-hired half a year later, and punched out a fellow waiter the same night he came back. They apparently used my "incident" as evidence of a pattern of aggression. Well in his case (I have my sources) it was cocaine.
So anyhow, I was beginning to doubt and second-guess what my instinct was telling me. I was beginning to wonder if I hadn't contrived something.
Well...usually after a workout I go to the gym snack bar and grab one of those high-tech drinks (some aminos, some carbs). I'll usually bring it over to the counter and have the person there throw some creatine in for good measure. Well here I was opening the glass case to get my drink, and a rather bulky and cut fellow reaches in behind me and makes a selection. The drink passes in front of my eyes. Bingo!! The word "thermogenic" smacks me up side the head (figuratively speaking). I reach in, grab another one of these drinks, and look at the list of ingredients. Sure enough....ephedrine. And enough that they actually put the dosage on the bottle.
Ever had a girlfriend on over-the-counter, cheap diet medication? Ever been married to a bodybuilder who was losing body fat just before a contest? I can say yes to both. It's not a pretty sight. I learned to stay away and not say much. All the experienced bodybuilders and their partners know and understand this, and have a sense of humor about their nasty moods. But I'm sure your average Joe who might have wanted to get a little more toned (like they guy who grabbed the drink beside me) wouldn't be aware of the behavioral side effects. Some people in the club take these drinks to lose weight. Some of them - I'm sure - take them to turbocharge their workouts.
Yes...it fits. I can't prove it, but the pattern fits. At least my internal logic machine has stopped torturing me...
- Bill
If you read further on my comments about the wooden training gun, you will see that I thought better of playing the bluff. Actually I didn't even think of it at the time of the incident; it was only later on that I mused over the possibility. I alluded to there being good reasons why I wouldn't want to play that "theoretical" card. The both of you stated the very reasons I was thinking of. No, I absolutely would not have wanted to go there. Yes, I always consider - in the state of Virginia - that someone might be "packing heat." I would never pull a weapon out anyhow unless I was willing to use it if things went very bad. Worry not, Rich. I'm not that stupid.
Van
There was only one exit out of the club that was not a fire exit. Yes, instinctively my defenses were up. No, I couldn't consciously rationalize that he would do something like follow me out of the club...until the club was closing and he was near the exit watching the TV. Reminds me - once again - of stuff I've read about in DeBecker. Males in particular are very, very bad about this.
What I was attempting to do was look for someone to notify about the "situation" - even about 10 minutes after the verbal exchange in front of the lat machine. All I was going to do was say "Hey, I just got into an arguement with so-and-so...I just needed to tell someone just in case." I saw several people I knew, even one person I'm close to. I wasn't able to get anyone to stop long enough to do anything more than the usual forearm bump (while going from one machine to the next) or comments about mindless stuff. The next morning I talked to my buddy (another martial artist) who I had seen at the club. He was mad (in a very nice way) that I didn't tell him. "I would have covered your back, man!" And he would have. I guess we all were busy trying to get our stuff done and I had rationalized that the incident was over.
Actually, Van, I do unusual things as a matter of course. I make a conscious effort to not be too predictable with my routines. As an example, I make it a point to take half a dozen different ways home, and freely alternate among them. This and many other things are part of my own "force continuum." But in this particular case, any alternate way out of the building may have set off a fire alarm. Most gymnasiums do this to keep people from slipping their buddies in the gym for free.
And what would I have done if I was facing double trouble? I guess that depends... If the fellow began to converse with someone in the evening as if he were a training partner, then I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to rationalize that the situation would go no further. I would likely have picked one of several options, including ending my workout and talking with my friend, or going to the front desk and making a phone call. Now if I were suddenly faced with two people out in the parking lot, well then I guess I would have been a lot less hesitant about being very, very nasty. Yes, I still would have turned around and looked directly at both of them - but not in a challenging way. I then would have "casually but efficiently" made my way directly to the van front door (never showing that I was intimidated), and would only have changed my route and intent if an assault was imminent.
An added comment
In doing the debriefing thing, I picked up on something that nobody else has commented on yet. When I actually put the age of the individual down, it suddenly dawned on me that this was not the "typical" profile of a steroid user. That bothered me a bit...because I truly believed this person's behavior was not normal. Yes, he could have had a bad day (argument with his girlfriend, boss, neighbor, etc.). But this "felt" like something very, very different. I can't articulate this well; I'm going on gut feelings.
I've had several incidents in my life where I ran across bullies with this type of abnormal agression. I mentioned several incidents in UVa weight rooms. I now know someone who used to hang out with several of these crowds (he actually always was a decent person). I was able to validate that the "hotheads" were on a multiple steroid regime. Actually it was very obvious, but I just wanted to confirm it.
Even earlier than that, I once had a waiter at a restaurant get "wierd" on me (circa 1978), and finally challenge me to a fight (with my girlfriend there watching the whole thing). I refused the fight, and later on got the guy fired (actually an entertaining story all its own). He was re-hired half a year later, and punched out a fellow waiter the same night he came back. They apparently used my "incident" as evidence of a pattern of aggression. Well in his case (I have my sources) it was cocaine.
So anyhow, I was beginning to doubt and second-guess what my instinct was telling me. I was beginning to wonder if I hadn't contrived something.
Well...usually after a workout I go to the gym snack bar and grab one of those high-tech drinks (some aminos, some carbs). I'll usually bring it over to the counter and have the person there throw some creatine in for good measure. Well here I was opening the glass case to get my drink, and a rather bulky and cut fellow reaches in behind me and makes a selection. The drink passes in front of my eyes. Bingo!! The word "thermogenic" smacks me up side the head (figuratively speaking). I reach in, grab another one of these drinks, and look at the list of ingredients. Sure enough....ephedrine. And enough that they actually put the dosage on the bottle.
Ever had a girlfriend on over-the-counter, cheap diet medication? Ever been married to a bodybuilder who was losing body fat just before a contest? I can say yes to both. It's not a pretty sight. I learned to stay away and not say much. All the experienced bodybuilders and their partners know and understand this, and have a sense of humor about their nasty moods. But I'm sure your average Joe who might have wanted to get a little more toned (like they guy who grabbed the drink beside me) wouldn't be aware of the behavioral side effects. Some people in the club take these drinks to lose weight. Some of them - I'm sure - take them to turbocharge their workouts.
Yes...it fits. I can't prove it, but the pattern fits. At least my internal logic machine has stopped torturing me...
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Student
Thanks for your kind comments.
I can always count on those who know me to represent - or mis-represent - me well. I don't know what I'd do without my friends ;-)
Actually to be specific, I have a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering. I was the result of an NIH initiative to train a new breed of scientist called "systems physiologists". It's a fancy way of saying that we are physiologists with high tech gadgets and a unique (more quantitative) perspective of the body. I did a faculty stint in the division of cardiology at UVa (noninvasive diagnostic techniques) before going into "the real world". Presently in my research job at an insurance company, I'm a member of another new breed called "health services researchers". These days I do things like calculate the cost of treating or preventing various diseases (from soup to nuts), or designing mathematical models to predict who will be really, really sick next year among our roughly 2 million covered lives.
My martial background includes dan ranks in Uechi (my present home base), goju (shorei kai), and aikido (tomiki). I also have trained in other styles.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-26-99).]
Thanks for your kind comments.
I can always count on those who know me to represent - or mis-represent - me well. I don't know what I'd do without my friends ;-)
Actually to be specific, I have a Ph.D. in biomedical engineering. I was the result of an NIH initiative to train a new breed of scientist called "systems physiologists". It's a fancy way of saying that we are physiologists with high tech gadgets and a unique (more quantitative) perspective of the body. I did a faculty stint in the division of cardiology at UVa (noninvasive diagnostic techniques) before going into "the real world". Presently in my research job at an insurance company, I'm a member of another new breed called "health services researchers". These days I do things like calculate the cost of treating or preventing various diseases (from soup to nuts), or designing mathematical models to predict who will be really, really sick next year among our roughly 2 million covered lives.
My martial background includes dan ranks in Uechi (my present home base), goju (shorei kai), and aikido (tomiki). I also have trained in other styles.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-26-99).]
-
RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Hi Bill. No, the reference to the toy gun was not meant for you. I brought it up in the event that someone might think that it would be a good idea to carry a look-alike for whatever reason.
Rich
Rich
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Bill:
Thank you for sharing your background; looks like I guess pretty well!
I posted my own on 11 November, 1999 in the Crossing The Bridge Forum Visualization and Cardio Conditioning thread, if you (or anyone) is interested.
I find these forums and thread to be very valuable. The posting in almost uniformly intelligent and considerate (once one learns what to discount in J. D.'s - oops, I mean "Dr. X's" style) even in heated disagreement; very different from some of the cybertigers/kittens/warthogs out there.
My own formal training is somewhat McDojang. Nothing wrong with that, actually, if one understands what it is and what it isn't. One of the realizations of achieving dan rank was that I was/am/always will be responsible for myself and my own training, and that if I find deficiencies in it, it's up to me to supplement.
So I now take responsibility for my own conditioning (What! You mean 2 x week TKD hasn't turned me into Superman? [No, but I AM approaching Clark Kent! <g>}) I also take part in this and the BladeForums threads, lurk in some others, read the Martial Arts Video Reviews and have finally chosen a video teacher to aid my street worthiness: Tony Blauer.
But back to the observation of the courtesies and compassion here vis-a-vis the cyberKREEGAH!s: could this be a manifestation of the difference between Do and Jitsu? That we are using the arts as a template of self improvement as well as self defense (though sometimes we have to goose them a little for true self defense purposes)?
Just a random thought on a Saturday morning as I prepare to do my TAE BO before going to arraignments.
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-27-99).]
Thank you for sharing your background; looks like I guess pretty well!
I posted my own on 11 November, 1999 in the Crossing The Bridge Forum Visualization and Cardio Conditioning thread, if you (or anyone) is interested.
I find these forums and thread to be very valuable. The posting in almost uniformly intelligent and considerate (once one learns what to discount in J. D.'s - oops, I mean "Dr. X's" style) even in heated disagreement; very different from some of the cybertigers/kittens/warthogs out there.
My own formal training is somewhat McDojang. Nothing wrong with that, actually, if one understands what it is and what it isn't. One of the realizations of achieving dan rank was that I was/am/always will be responsible for myself and my own training, and that if I find deficiencies in it, it's up to me to supplement.
So I now take responsibility for my own conditioning (What! You mean 2 x week TKD hasn't turned me into Superman? [No, but I AM approaching Clark Kent! <g>}) I also take part in this and the BladeForums threads, lurk in some others, read the Martial Arts Video Reviews and have finally chosen a video teacher to aid my street worthiness: Tony Blauer.
But back to the observation of the courtesies and compassion here vis-a-vis the cyberKREEGAH!s: could this be a manifestation of the difference between Do and Jitsu? That we are using the arts as a template of self improvement as well as self defense (though sometimes we have to goose them a little for true self defense purposes)?
Just a random thought on a Saturday morning as I prepare to do my TAE BO before going to arraignments.
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-27-99).]
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Student,
We won't hold TKD against you... much. One of my weekly training partner is committed TKD person, though she is getting into trouble at her dojang for making face contact a lot. (As she says -- "It's there. It's there... so I take it.")
Actually, it is the beauty of these forums that folks come from a variety of practices and experiences. Generally there is less BS-ing going on because unlike a some of the other forums where folks post in anonymity and become great cyber warriors. Most of us here know the others, or the others' instructors, despite the geographic distribution. To be sure, there are occaisonal trolls and flamers. Largely there is respect and moderation.
BTW, you are welcome to join in the annual summer camp festivities. There is a lot of training and learning packed into 4 days. Good training and good people.
Commercial over. Back to the regular programming.
david
We won't hold TKD against you... much. One of my weekly training partner is committed TKD person, though she is getting into trouble at her dojang for making face contact a lot. (As she says -- "It's there. It's there... so I take it.")
Actually, it is the beauty of these forums that folks come from a variety of practices and experiences. Generally there is less BS-ing going on because unlike a some of the other forums where folks post in anonymity and become great cyber warriors. Most of us here know the others, or the others' instructors, despite the geographic distribution. To be sure, there are occaisonal trolls and flamers. Largely there is respect and moderation.
BTW, you are welcome to join in the annual summer camp festivities. There is a lot of training and learning packed into 4 days. Good training and good people.
Commercial over. Back to the regular programming.
david
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
"Post in anonymity and become great cyber warriors"? Why, David, why ever would you SING that song?<g>
Remember, I read/post the BladeForums as well.
TAE BO done; shower, and off to court.
Bye.
student
Remember, I read/post the BladeForums as well.
TAE BO done; shower, and off to court.
Bye.
student
Debriefing (continued from "a bad, bad thing")
Student,
Yes. You seen some of the worse in the cyberforums, like the recent flame attack on Bram. I seen those in Knifeforums and Bladeforums. Makes me appreciate this one more. Too much anonymity can be a problem in this medium I think. At the same time, one can get a lot of good and different perspectives. In some cases, you can actually end up meeting some folks. I've met up with some of the KF & BF folks in various seminars. Then there are the others you'll never meet nor want to...
This is a pretty good place, as you can sense by now. Glad you found it and contribute to it.
BTW, I forgot the smiley icon in my other post and hope you know I am joking about TKD. There are TKD practitioners here as well. Remember, it's almost always the practitioner rather than the art being practiced.
david
P.S. "sing" is my first given name. The Chinese character for it is that for "truth."
[This message has been edited by david (edited 11-27-99).]
Yes. You seen some of the worse in the cyberforums, like the recent flame attack on Bram. I seen those in Knifeforums and Bladeforums. Makes me appreciate this one more. Too much anonymity can be a problem in this medium I think. At the same time, one can get a lot of good and different perspectives. In some cases, you can actually end up meeting some folks. I've met up with some of the KF & BF folks in various seminars. Then there are the others you'll never meet nor want to...
This is a pretty good place, as you can sense by now. Glad you found it and contribute to it.
BTW, I forgot the smiley icon in my other post and hope you know I am joking about TKD. There are TKD practitioners here as well. Remember, it's almost always the practitioner rather than the art being practiced.
david
P.S. "sing" is my first given name. The Chinese character for it is that for "truth."
[This message has been edited by david (edited 11-27-99).]
