For those who have done research on the martial arts before, you might have found that if a martial art comes from one area, and goes to another, it will change to fit the place that it's in. Take okinawan karate when it was brought to japan. Yes, it took a little bit, but karate changed to fit the attitude and possibly the needs (not sure about the needs one) of the culture it was in. So, with uechi-ryu and other styles that have moved mostly (atleast from my perspective) to the us, how would that style change over time to fit it's new environment?
Adam
musings of the future
Moderator: Available
musings of the future
How long do you hold yourself in horse stance in class, Adam?
How much contact is allowed in kumite?
How many different colors for kyu belts, different ways of marking dan belts, different titles, certificates, trophies, presentations, etc.?
We are an acquisitive, impatient culture. We want tangible results, fast. Hence, McDojo. Hence, new and flashy techniques. Hence, less patience with traditional methods for training and the student pushing his or her envelope - such as the horse stance for long periods of time. Hence, tangible signs of progress, such as the numerous kyu belts, certificates, etc.
And the flip side is that we are also a "Show Me" culture. We can be dazzled with the strange and arcane, but sooner rather than later we will insist on actual proof. We insist on minimal standards for safety; hence, the contact is down.
(All right, many of you will think this is a bad thing. I submit that one can always get together in a venue to test oneself further and more physically with kindred spirits; the initial training and especially that of children must be done safely. This is as objective as I can be, but discount that I have a 15 year old son practicing TKD with me and I also am an attorney.)
The changes already are here, Adam.
(N.B. No need to tell me that you, the reader, practice your art as traditionally as you know how to. I'm sure that's true for many on this Forum. But I was taking a broad view towards responding to the question; now, if you think my broad view is mistaken, please comment!)
Sigh. More, and more traditional, training.
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited 12-24-99).]
[This message has been edited by student (edited 12-24-99).]
How much contact is allowed in kumite?
How many different colors for kyu belts, different ways of marking dan belts, different titles, certificates, trophies, presentations, etc.?
We are an acquisitive, impatient culture. We want tangible results, fast. Hence, McDojo. Hence, new and flashy techniques. Hence, less patience with traditional methods for training and the student pushing his or her envelope - such as the horse stance for long periods of time. Hence, tangible signs of progress, such as the numerous kyu belts, certificates, etc.
And the flip side is that we are also a "Show Me" culture. We can be dazzled with the strange and arcane, but sooner rather than later we will insist on actual proof. We insist on minimal standards for safety; hence, the contact is down.
(All right, many of you will think this is a bad thing. I submit that one can always get together in a venue to test oneself further and more physically with kindred spirits; the initial training and especially that of children must be done safely. This is as objective as I can be, but discount that I have a 15 year old son practicing TKD with me and I also am an attorney.)
The changes already are here, Adam.
(N.B. No need to tell me that you, the reader, practice your art as traditionally as you know how to. I'm sure that's true for many on this Forum. But I was taking a broad view towards responding to the question; now, if you think my broad view is mistaken, please comment!)
Sigh. More, and more traditional, training.
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited 12-24-99).]
[This message has been edited by student (edited 12-24-99).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
musings of the future
Adam
I'd like to offer another perspective.
The beauty about the U.S. culture is that we are such a heterogeneous society, and we are now in the midst of "the information age". So now this piece of history from the era of the Boxer Rebellion is dropped into a culture that is studying many other martial arts.
My personal bias towards the "Uechi" style is actually not very Okinawan at all. I see the Okinawan interpretation of Kanbun's style to be a valid and indeed effective one, and yet I see so much more that they (the Okinawan culture) did not care to see. I am so happy to have been exposed to the grabbing and throwing arts (aikido, jiujitsu, judo) and to other cousin arts (Wing Chun) so that I could develop my own perspective of this "in your face" style. So...while folks like Evan are looking for magic knockout forumulas and Gary is having us learn generic karate sparring so we can enter multi-style karate tournaments, others like myself and Jack summers and Joe Belone, etc, etc see different aspects of this conservative, open-handed system.
And...this "salad bowl" culture will put many, many stamps on this style with such a simple blueprint but so many possibilities.
- Bill
I'd like to offer another perspective.
The beauty about the U.S. culture is that we are such a heterogeneous society, and we are now in the midst of "the information age". So now this piece of history from the era of the Boxer Rebellion is dropped into a culture that is studying many other martial arts.
My personal bias towards the "Uechi" style is actually not very Okinawan at all. I see the Okinawan interpretation of Kanbun's style to be a valid and indeed effective one, and yet I see so much more that they (the Okinawan culture) did not care to see. I am so happy to have been exposed to the grabbing and throwing arts (aikido, jiujitsu, judo) and to other cousin arts (Wing Chun) so that I could develop my own perspective of this "in your face" style. So...while folks like Evan are looking for magic knockout forumulas and Gary is having us learn generic karate sparring so we can enter multi-style karate tournaments, others like myself and Jack summers and Joe Belone, etc, etc see different aspects of this conservative, open-handed system.
And...this "salad bowl" culture will put many, many stamps on this style with such a simple blueprint but so many possibilities.
- Bill
musings of the future
Student.
Nicely put! I'd like to add a comment to your observation: In some ways, it boils down to the fact that there's probably greater emphasis here on the external aspects (lip service is paid to the internal aspects but generally little understanding). For those that understand, such 'exploration' is natural and desirable.
For those that don't receive 'the full transmission' there are always new and exciting external stimuli. It enables folks to postpone the real work that needs to be done in their traditional training.
That would be fine, and a progressive enhancement if at some point, there was a correction and these same folks realized they needed to go back and re-start anew.
The unfortunate thing here is that this correction doesn't seem to happen.
In some ways, it's quantity over quality. Some people think if they put in the time, do the kata etc., for so many years, at some point, they 'get it'. It doesn't happen that way. It is entirely possible to do kata incorrectly for years. When done incorrectly, many movements, including blocks, will not work when needed. The self-deception is that the block will work simply because someone has done the kata for years. I disagree.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 12-24-99).]
Nicely put! I'd like to add a comment to your observation: In some ways, it boils down to the fact that there's probably greater emphasis here on the external aspects (lip service is paid to the internal aspects but generally little understanding). For those that understand, such 'exploration' is natural and desirable.
For those that don't receive 'the full transmission' there are always new and exciting external stimuli. It enables folks to postpone the real work that needs to be done in their traditional training.
That would be fine, and a progressive enhancement if at some point, there was a correction and these same folks realized they needed to go back and re-start anew.
The unfortunate thing here is that this correction doesn't seem to happen.
In some ways, it's quantity over quality. Some people think if they put in the time, do the kata etc., for so many years, at some point, they 'get it'. It doesn't happen that way. It is entirely possible to do kata incorrectly for years. When done incorrectly, many movements, including blocks, will not work when needed. The self-deception is that the block will work simply because someone has done the kata for years. I disagree.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 12-24-99).]
-
Joseph Bellone
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: MA, USA
musings of the future
We have a great opportunity.
Historically, there has always been interweaving of concepts, techniques and philosophies. Even on Okinawa, look at the old masters. A Naha-te practioner would pick up something from his buddy doing Shuri-te. A tea pushing merchant who studied a Crane style in Fukien, goes over to dump some tea over in Okinawa and influences some Naha-te guy.
Back then, "if it worked, it was good!" No one was too concerned that this wasn't a Uechi technique...
Personally, I think American Karate has unique characteristics. This, in my opinion is a very good thing. I think there's a couple of strengths that it embraces. First, that we seek out and share knowledge and ideas with others. If we don't do this, we weaken the system as a whole. There's a lot of Americans not doing this. They should get involved, they don't live on Okinawa. By not getting involved, they act selfessly and hurt the potentially sincere student. Secondly, I think it's important to honor tradition, maintaining our connection to the roots of the style, but not be blinded by it. It's great that people communicate with Okinawa. But, we have the luxury in this "age of communication" to get information very quickly and from a variety of sources. There is not too much held mystically sacred anymore just because it comes out of Okinawa. If something violates a principle of structure or doesn't settle with me ethically, it doesn't matter if it comes from Okinawa or Timbuktoo. It's wrong. Third, we must hold high standards for our teachers. Teachers, must know their audience and allow their students to "look elsewhere" and grow after giving them a solid foundation. Regardless of where that takes them. As far as the responsibilty of the teachers themselves, I think it's very healthy for them to "put on a white belt" in a different art every once and a while. It tends to give them a fresh perspective and appreciation of their art. Take it from me, it does.
Are there advantages to the old training methods? The answer is Yes. But the student or teacher should then look at why those methods were sucessful and how he could implement them in this different environment.
That's the challenge. But, with this challenge there's tremendous opportunity.
Historically, there has always been interweaving of concepts, techniques and philosophies. Even on Okinawa, look at the old masters. A Naha-te practioner would pick up something from his buddy doing Shuri-te. A tea pushing merchant who studied a Crane style in Fukien, goes over to dump some tea over in Okinawa and influences some Naha-te guy.
Back then, "if it worked, it was good!" No one was too concerned that this wasn't a Uechi technique...
Personally, I think American Karate has unique characteristics. This, in my opinion is a very good thing. I think there's a couple of strengths that it embraces. First, that we seek out and share knowledge and ideas with others. If we don't do this, we weaken the system as a whole. There's a lot of Americans not doing this. They should get involved, they don't live on Okinawa. By not getting involved, they act selfessly and hurt the potentially sincere student. Secondly, I think it's important to honor tradition, maintaining our connection to the roots of the style, but not be blinded by it. It's great that people communicate with Okinawa. But, we have the luxury in this "age of communication" to get information very quickly and from a variety of sources. There is not too much held mystically sacred anymore just because it comes out of Okinawa. If something violates a principle of structure or doesn't settle with me ethically, it doesn't matter if it comes from Okinawa or Timbuktoo. It's wrong. Third, we must hold high standards for our teachers. Teachers, must know their audience and allow their students to "look elsewhere" and grow after giving them a solid foundation. Regardless of where that takes them. As far as the responsibilty of the teachers themselves, I think it's very healthy for them to "put on a white belt" in a different art every once and a while. It tends to give them a fresh perspective and appreciation of their art. Take it from me, it does.
Are there advantages to the old training methods? The answer is Yes. But the student or teacher should then look at why those methods were sucessful and how he could implement them in this different environment.
That's the challenge. But, with this challenge there's tremendous opportunity.
