Seisan Christmas Dreams

[Victor]

Hi Bill-san,

I just posted this to the Kyusho List and thought you might find this interesting.

Seisan Christmas Dreams

I'd like to address a current topic, the common themes present in the various Kata Seisan.

While the name Seisan may be translated '13' and be done in 13 steps, 13 breaths, using 13 different energies or against 13 different attackers (all of which seem to be arbitrary definitions depending on the viewer) without substantive proof as the an original version, I do not think mere discussion will resolve any of these themes. Perhaps a copy of a 1860 home Okinawan video would satisfy all of us. If someone has that copy I'd sure like to see it. Of course I'd like to see an 1812 Chinese original home video even more.

In my mind the first common theme really regards the proper use of energy in kata execution. The issues of correct stance, use of the hip in the energy transfer from lower to upper body, and proper posture are common regardless of the version of Seisan being performed. It is true each version will have a different flavor of an answer, but the use of the kata as a tool to develop and manage specific energies for self defense can't be understated.

The next theme to consider is whether the various kata are developing different self defense initiatives. That being the techniques being used are somewhat different between the Goju, Isshin, Shorin, Shotokan and Ueichi themes. In this I'm referring to Primary (basic) Bunkai or application of the techniques. I believe at this level it seems the various versions are different creatures. Basically the Shorin (including Isshin and Shotokon), Goju and Ueichi take on the characteristics of their system and often, in effect, define their system.

But I believe there is a real commonality present, as witnessed in the basic embusen (pattern) of the kata. Here is where I see Seisan-ness, perhaps the trace to the original essence of a source form.

Seisan-ness. Consider the pattern, each form opens with a row going forward, then a 180 degree turn and a row going back, then a section where you turn 90 degrees, then 180 degrees then 90 degrees (regardless of which direction is being turned. [I would diagram this as " II+ " , I first row down then I second row back and + for the next section. This is followed by the completion of the form (which varies according to system).

Ok, this is a very simple patterning of the form [we can go into greater detail some other time]. But the commonality shared by this underlying embusen is important.

What I've learned in the past quarter century is how much work it is to go beyond what you were originally taught. We accept Sensei and his teaching implicitly. Those original teachings might be modified by our experience as time passes, but the why change the underlying pattern.

Step outside Seisan, and consider Passai-ness. Whethere Passai, Passai Sho, Passai Dai, or the Bassai variations, the underlying embusen was rarely touched. Even where pieces of the Kyan Passai were utilized in Shimabuku Tatsuo's kata SunNuSu, their presence is still readily viewable. I have read that there are at least 11 major variations of Passai on Okinawa. But from what I've observed and studied, the Passai-ness is present.

Thus the presence of Seisan-ness, or the underlying structure, appears over and over within the different Seisan kata.

Still another common theme are the possibility of the Secondary Bunkai (applications) being the same, regardless of the Seisan variations performed.

A simple observation. In the opening (whether left outside block or double outside block and open hand or closed fists too followed by a reverse punch (open hand or closed fist) where different striking traditions are followed. Full turning punch in Goju and Shorin or Shotokan (oe 3/4 turn too), or Vertical punch in Isshinryu or Nukite (spear hand) Strike in Ueichiryu, all have different striking positions and traditions. But consider if the initial left outside block is done against an attackers left punch, the actual right arm might be used not to strike with the fist, but to roll the forearm over the attackers arm with the punch, to use that rolling motion to turn the attacker down to the ground. In this application of every initial move, all are doing the same application. Hence where is the difference.

Addition of the low side kick at the end if the first row of techniques is not precluded by the other traditions. I can easily demonstrate how the low side kick is contained In the lower body turning movement during the transition from the first row to the second. So the same techniques may be there either explicit or implicit in application.

And if one starts beginning techniques from the middle of one stepping technique to the conclusion of the middle of the next stepping technique, in effect using the lower body movement to displace the attackers center and down them, I can show all of the traditions are based on exactly the same techniques.

Now as a simple observer of Kyusho's existence, and not a Kyusho person, I leave the commonality of striking specific points within the different traditions to all as a gift to contemplate on your own recognizance.

I do not state this constitutes proof of a common origin to kata Seisan. However likely I do believe that that may be. But I expect we all can gain more knowledge as to how to wring more out of the form through cross system analysis.

May we all share fully in the upcoming Century.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi

For that special Christmas Gift, Try some of my martial arts fiction
http://www.sinanju.manufree.net/index.htm


Appendix:

Personal Seisan Studies

Isshinryu Seisan kata - Tom Lewis/Charles Murray
Shotokan Hangeetsu kata Tris Sutrisno
Ueichi Ryu Seisan kata Tom Chan
Shorinryu Honda Katsu (Ezio Shimabkuu Tradition) Seisan Kata - Carl Long

and have done research on

Pat McCarthy's Aragaki Seisan
Odo's Okinawan Kempo Seisan
George Alexander's Seisan
Hiagonna Morio's Goju ryu Seisan
plus several others ........

and the texts of

Steve Armstrong's "Seisan Kata"
Pat McCarthy's "Okinawan Karate"
Okazaki's "Modern Karate"
Best Karate's Hangetsu
Among others.



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Victor Smith

[Evan Pantazi]

Victor San,

Thank you for your insights and comparisons. In making studies of different Arts from Aki based to hard Okinawan fist styles and even into the internal Arts, each motion can be observed in all the Arts (a little alteration in delivery here and there, but none the less similar). There is one truth somewhere that can be modified in an infinte array, our mission if we decide to accept it (an expression of deep parrallels as well), is to seek this. Again thank you.

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Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho

[Victor]

Evan,

Thank you for you observations. Yes so much can be found. I agree on the internal arts with Tai Chi and BaGuaZhang intrests being present as well.

I've had so much fun with this study, I'm considering holding a symposium in 2000 for those in the New England Area who wish to explore the commonality of Seisan Kata from multiple systems. It might be very interesting.



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Victor Smith

[Joseph Bellone]

Hi Victor,

Interesting observations. The Tai Chi classics state that there were only 13 original posture in which all the "modern" flavors derived from. (Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun, Hao)

In many Xing Yi Quan and Bagua Zhang systems, you have the emphasis on combining 5 element fist approaches and the 8 trigrams. I agree with you gentlemen that there's some interesting patterns that keep "popping" up.

Just a side thought, Jigoro Kano also was heavily influenced with the 8 directions when he popularized the concept of Kuzushi into modern Judo. And lastly, this concept is very common to Uechi-ryu's Sanchin daichi theory.

It would be interesting to push the envelope on these concepts. Please count me in!

Joe

[Bill Glasheen]

Victor

What a wonderful Christmas present, this post. Thanks so much. Your observations are very information rich, and will give me much to think about. While I can't yet decide whether or not the commonalities are inadvertent plagiarism or reemphasis of important themes, they make one ponder all the right thoughts and ideas.

I'd be very interested in such a seminar.

- Bill

[Joe Swift]

Hi Victor-san,

Great post,and this is something that I also have noticed in the Seisan... as Bill-san stated, is this "inadvertant plagiarism" or reinforcement of common, important themes, OR indeed, that they all came from a common source? Much more research is needed, but personally I tend toward the latter.

If I were in the area, I would love to attend such a seminar,,, alas, I am "stuck" in "the land with no chairs"...

I will do some more research into this area and get back on this topic sometime soon!

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Joe Swift
Kanazawa, Japan



[This message has been edited by Joe Swift (edited 12-26-99).]

[Evan Pantazi]

Victor San,

Let me know if you set something up, I would love to ateend as well.


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Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho

[gmattson]

Victor:
Great post. You sound like someone who would enjoy participating in our Summer Camp. This would be an excellent time to discuss, demonstrate and workout, focusing on the similarities of the kata.

As an Isshinryu practitioner, doesn't your seisan come from Goju? In my estimation, the Goju and Shorin influences seem to work at cross purposes. I remember the Okinawans from Goju, Uechi and Shorin discussing the development of Isshin, saying that it was created for the American GIs, and that the emphasis in each of the elements worked at cross purposes. They felt that each system ended up at the same place, but had very unique and different methods to accomplish their goals.

Wondering if you have ever given any thought to these comments. (I'm sure you have heard them before.)

BTW, I've seen many different versions of Isshin. It appears to me that the seniors, at some point, interpret the system with either a Shorin or Goju emphasis and that they don't retain the goju way of doing goju kata and the shorin emphasis when doing the shorin kata.

This may be old discussion material to you victor, but I don't believe many of us on this forum are aware of these issues. Also, the information may help us understand the concept of how a style is created and modified and eventually accepted within the MA community.

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GEM

[Victor]

George and all on the Ueichi Ryu Site,

I really appreciate these responses..

You wrote:<Great post. You sound like someone who would enjoy participating in our Summer Camp. This would be an excellent time to discuss, demonstrate and workout, focusing on the similarities of the kata.>

You Summer Camp sure sounds like a good time. Truthfully not sure whether it would fit my schedule and funds or not. To try and have some fun with Seisan, I'd prefer to try something smaller, at least as a start.
My current thinking is to survive (try to, get through, learn something) at my friends Ying Jow Pai Chin Na clinic later in January. Then try and see when a Seisan symposium would be do-able.

George you then ask a number of interesting questions which I'll try and answer.

<As an Isshinryu practitioner, doesn't your Seisan come from Goju? >

Actually it comes Tom Lewis (humorous reply of ocurse). Shimabuku Tatsuo's Seisan Kata came from his studies with Kyan Chotoko in Shorinryu, and the major difference I'm aware of is the use of the vertical fist for punching. I've studied a lot of different systems, but trying to understand the totality of even Seisan Kata is beyond my ken.


<In my estimation, the Goju and Shorin influences seem to work at cross purposes. I remember the Okinawans from Goju, Uechi and Shorin discussing the development of Isshin, saying that it was created for the American GIs, and that the emphasis in each of the elements worked at cross purposes. They felt that each system ended up at the same place, but had very unique and different methods to accomplish their goals.Wondering if you have ever given any thought to these comments. (I'm sure you have heard them before.)>

First, I should make clear my voice in Isshinryu is simply my own. I am a product of Tom Lewis (Originally Salisbury, Md and now Wyoming) and Lt. Col Charles Murray (USAF), both who trained under Shimabuku Tatsuo at different times. The past 6 or so years I have also been enhancing my vision of Isshinryu application of kata by attending and hosting the most amazing clinics with Sherman Harrill of Carson Iowa. I am unaligned with any Isshinryu association. [Free translation, my sins are my own responsibility.]

I see Isshinryu's organization as mostly a Kyan based Shorin system. The Isshinryu kata Seisan, Nihanchi, Wansu, Chinto and Kusanku came from those origins. In addition to his training with Kyan, Shomabuku Tatsuo trained under Myiagi and studied Sanchin and Seiuchin kata. With the inclusion of his own efforts SunNuSu kata that completes the Isshinryu curriculum.

Each form retains some of the flavor of the original instructor, some of the flavor of Shimabuju Tatsu's work (such as choice of stances or use of the vertical fist) and of course some flavor of the current instructor(s) and student.

I don't think Shorinryu and Gojuryu are incompatible, because the basic underlying structures, stance, movement and body alignment all have the same requirements. Likewise the same principles of application will fit both systematic approaches to karate. Of course this is just my own opinion, but it fuels my practice and school.


<BTW, I've seen many different versions of Isshin. It appears to me that the seniors, at some point, interpret the system with either a Shorin or Goju emphasis and that they don't retain the goju way of doing goju kata and the shorin emphasis when doing the shorin kata. >

Within the Isshinryu community there is often discussion about what Shiambuku Tatsuo did or didn't study or teach at one time or another. With his death, those questions remain unanswered and open to the opinions of the responders.

His system (Isshinryu) was very fluid, in that my instructors saw him teach differently for different students. This included teaching some students twisting punches and others vertical punchs, as well as completely different versions of the kata. (Based on Lewis, T. and Harrill S. training 59 - 60 in Okinawa, and Murray, C. training in 70 in Okinawa, too.) I personally would like to think his reason was to address the best answer for each student. But of course that's just my opinion, too. If so it's a quite different approach to what most consider a system should be today.

The Isshinryu community is splintered into many, many, many different versions of the "One Way". As I am not a member of any of those groups, I choose not to comment on the various reasons directly.

But indirectly, as I see it, the current different versions of Isshinryu stem from both his individualized training method as well as returning to the USA and not receiving "Correct" re-enforcement of a standardized source. While there have been many attempts there has been no consensus accepted by all Isshinryu practioners.

Truthfully most of my own work comes from study with a wide range of good martial artists and striving to understand the commonality behind them. For most of the last 25 years I've been just that a student and an instructor. Please do not consider my remarks regarding Isshinryu as the "CORRECT" version of the system. To attempt that would take me a very long time and is most definitely NOT where my efforts lead me.

For myself, I've been instructing youth at Boys Clubs and Boys and Girls Clubs for over 20 years. In addition I have a very small Dan program too. For those who wish to learn more about what vision of the Infinite Fist I see, my web site details a little of my efforts. It can be found at www.funkydragon.com/bushi

I hope I haven't been too confusing with this reply in a Seisan post. But with a little effort perhaps we can find 13 strands of thought in all of this.



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Victor Smith