Empty Force Test

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Bill Glasheen
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Empty Force Test

Post by Bill Glasheen »

But Captain, I can't violate the laws of physics!...

Yes, Keven, very compliant. Or perhaps what you are observing isn't a "force" in the Newtonian sense. No, I'm not going to get all woo woo on you.

Let's put it this way. My 98 pound older sister can look at one of her 200 pound Great Danes a certain way and make him stop on a dime. Better yet, she can make him piss all over himself. Predictably. Repeatedly (as long as bladder is full). Now, what would you say about this empty force?

Yes, I believe there is something to all this. No, there is no magic. Yes, I believe Kanbun understood this when he spoke of "glare in the eyes." And yes, my older sister has had this for years and makes no great claim to special training or unconventional energetics.

- Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited January 18, 2000).]
Kevin Mackie
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Empty Force Test

Post by Kevin Mackie »

I thought I'd post this here as this forum is more general and I don't want to add to the confusion that seems to exist between Kyushu and "empty force". Hopefully, Bill's recent post went a long way to clarify the world of difference between the two. Besides, Evan has been kind and patient with this topic and I don't want to be the straw to break the camel's back.

I disagree only slightly with Rich C. about no one making statements about this or any subject unless they have some knowledge of it. I know nothing of Lin Kong Jing other than what I've been reading about here on these pages. My knowledge comes from the physics side of the fence, and we are dealing with alleged forces here. Nevertheless, the further one is away from being an expert, the less credence should be given to what they write or say, so take this for what it's worth to you. My professional work experience has had me involved with aerodynamics, hydrodynamics, acoustics, explosives, and other matters that all relate directly back to F=MA. I have two undergraduate engineering degrees and a masters degree. Big whoop! My point is that I was born at night but not last night.

Although it would be unfair to jump to conclusions about the results of the summer camp "empty force" test, may I suggest it would be fair to discuss the test protocol? Who were the subjects? Was it truly double blind? (I saw the AVI's on someone's post last year and saw no "placebo" in the test, only Rich Mooney) Who were the official judges and what was the scoring criteria? How were the judges chosen, BTW, as no one could possibly have valid credentials for judging empty force demonstrations? I ask this so that I may be my own judge and use the same criteria as them.

I for one would have liked to see the test done with some of the participants on roller blades. What would the chances be of stopping a 200 plus pounder rolling along steady state at another person with empty force? (i.e. no friction between the sneakers and the pavement).

As for my own beliefs, I am as skeptical as anyone on the planet about anything that apparently defies the laws of physics to which our present universe must comply.

Because someone has a belief doesn't make it so. My mother-in-law presented me with a small bottle of "Lourdes water" Sunday to give to my ailing sister. She (MIL) firmly believes that people have been cured by this potion. I told her that the facts prove otherwise and I'd rather bury a dead cat at midnight to get the same effect. I told her to keep the water.

I can however make one definite conclusion about what I have observed in the test videos. The "empty force" is extremely compliant. If a large man had run into Rich Mooney straight on and hands and arms were used to stop him, Rich would experienced a reaction to the collision. There was no such reaction in the video I saw. A compliant force would have dissipated the energy before it reached Rich. (picture the force as a block of foam rubber the size of a fridge).

VTY

Kevin




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Evan Pantazi
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Empty Force Test

Post by Evan Pantazi »

JD San,

Just hit them in the bladder.

Kevin San,

I was one of the test subjects along with a whole group of others who sat and watched each of the other subjects take their turn and stand in front of the door. We saw some sway we saw others that didn't...two important questions:

First was it truly blind if we all watched each other go in front of the door and see some swaying and others not.

Second, how many people that did not sway feel the motion and fought it to remain motionless.

I remember when Sifu Mooney's claims and technique were first brought under fire on these Fourums with not one of the opposition ever having seen or been exposed to his technique. I sponsored a seminar to investigate this at my own school and get first hand information. It was at this event I went through alot of his technique and I was able to just stand there but it was with counter balancing as I definately felt somnething was moving me (I was not alone). This could also be the case with a lot of the test subjects, did anyone poll each one afterward on their experience...it may have surfaced this issue.

Please understand I am not criticising the test...it was a rather clever concept, and I surely didn't have any ideas on how to subjectively test it. It would be beneficial to look at the test and some of the side issues (surely others have more input as well) and keep testing. A single test is not convincing, but a series to tune the procedures (even using a more independent group of testors).

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Evan Pantazi
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Empty Force Test

Post by mikemurphy »

I too can say that I volunteered to see if Sensei Mooney could really manipulate the "chi" and move me. I do not intend to show any disrespect for sensei Mooney as I'm sure he is very good at what he does and is a very nice and gracious gentleman. I, though, am the type of person who needs to be shown that something works, so I stood up there for his seminar and waited to be moved. I personally got in front and told sensei Mooney that I didn't know if I believed in what he was doing, but was willing to try.

The conclusion was that he didn't move me, nor did I feel anything, although there were those around me reeling about as if they were being pushed over. Maybe it is one of those things, like hypnotism that needs to be believed in prior to the exercise in order to make it work. I don't know, but I don't think I be spending too much more time on this particular activity in the future.

Yours in budo,
Mike
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Bill Glasheen
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Empty Force Test

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Evan

I will address a few of your questions. However - although it has taken me a long time to finish - I have been more than patient. I actually accomplished the feat of getting J.D. to be quiet. It's only fair that those with different points of view be equally patient.

The test was indeed double blinded. It doesn't really matter what you folks saw on one side of the wall. None of you knew what you were supposed to do. And there were three possible options...one of which was to do nothing to the subject. So in trying to "fight" some mysterious force, the subject very well may have been doing exactly what (s)he was supposed to do. And the folks among the test subjects who were "friendly" to the cause (and there were indeed some) wouldn't know what to do either. They very well may have leaned the wrong way, or leaned when they were supposed to be motionless. So...the first blind is that the subjects did not know what was supposed to happen. Yes, there will be all types of wierd stuff going on. This happens in real research when there is a treatment and a control. You will see an "effect" even in the control group. What you do is to measure the difference between control (which will only exhibit a very real placebo effect) and treatment. The "do nothing" option served as a control.

The second blinding came in the judging. I gave instructions to the "judges" about the 3 possible options they were to assess. Yes, they observed leaning in some subjects. But THEY didn't know what the subjects were supposed to do either.

Please trust me...this came out better than I thought. It should be helpful, if people will throw their emotions away, shut up, and think about it. And most of all, wait until the write-up.

As for the polling...it was done. I didn't include it with the assessment as I was concerned about possible biases of the individuals (the same thing you were concerned about). But we did poll everyone there and asked them what they thought they felt. I then told them what the actual effect should have been. If I am not mistaken, Evan, you were there. The results of that speak for themselves. If you do not recall, ask George.

- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Empty Force Test

Post by Bill Glasheen »

J.D.

The feat you speak of is easier to accomplish than you think. Anyone who has been truly frightened - and I mean to-the-bone, fear-of-death fright - has had the opportunity to experience changes in every-day bodily functions. It happens to various degrees with different individuals. I have observed it in the size of the pupils of people's eyes.

Great Danes are highly sensitive dogs. You can kill a Dane by not loving it enough. You can also devastate it by showing disappointment. I can remember after having owned Brandon (my first Dane) for a month, coming home and observing what he did to my magazines in the living room. All I said was "Oh s...!" Next thing I new, large volumes of urine were spewing all around my living room. Folks were giving me very strange looks when I was carrying this 125 pound puppy down the stairwell with one hand clamping down on...you had to be there. From that point on, I would walk into my living room with the perfect poker face. Brandon would scrutinize my every manner, wondering if the latest thing he trashed was going to make me disappointed. I would just quietly and calmly get the leash and take him outside. Then I would bring him back upstairs and have a "talk" with him. It didn't take very much to get the point across.

I personally have used a technique like this to get myself out of a fight. I learned it by dealing with dogs while a paper boy and a lawn maintenance worker (summer job). I would get challenged by vicious dogs every day, doing what they felt like they were supposed to do. The right posture and attitude would make them stop in their tracks.

Much later on in my life, I had Jim Thompson over to my Charlottesville dojo (1980s). We had just taken him out to some restaurant. We dispersed in small numbers. I had gone out to my car with my girlfriend Kathryn, and my housemate from Beijing, China was going to his motorbike. Next thing I know, I hear this big commotion. I got out of the car to observe two rednecks hassling my Chinese housemate...probably because he was Chinese. Anybody who knows me knows I am not quick to fight, but there are a few things that bring the animal out. One is to attempt to victimize others. I yelled something at the two to get there attention towards me and away from my housemate. One of them came stomping across the parking lot right towards me, presumably to teach me a lesson. I just hunkered down in a subtle but familiar posture and gave him "the look". My posture was unwavering and my intent was unmistakable. The redneck who was coming towards me suddenly stopped, and his friend grabbed him. The friend then said "Hey man, we're just drunk.." That was the end of the confrontation.

Mysterious force? Unconventional energetics? I think you would be better off staying away from the physicists, and instead talking to the likes of Paul Giella. As I stated before, I believe this is real and I do not believe it to be magic. These are opinions of course, but I'm fairly confident of them.

- Bill
Tim Ahearn
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Empty Force Test

Post by Tim Ahearn »

Just a quick note about people's subjective assessment of what they felt...

Stand in one place for 60 seconds with your eyes closed and I bet you will feel something--you will sway somewhat. I have done it a number of times since the test and everytime I have felt what I could describe as a pressure pushing me (usually) back--and had to consciously counter balance. But it's really not mysterious and common sense will suffice. Sight has a lot to do with balance. I'm off balance. But none of this really is the point. The reason we need tests such as the one at the summer camp is to remove subjective assessment and to account for various factors statistically.

As to the peeing dogs, stopping people with a glare, etc...

Obviously, Mr. Mooney claims much more than this. The videos Evan posted had him stop a punch in mid flight, for example. Other sites on the web see him pushing back lines of people, or making people take large steps forward or backward. All very dramatic demonstrations. Can you stop a punch, or make a person take a step back--not just decide he's bit off more than he can chew--with your glare, your manifestation of intent? It's an obvious point, but that is what Mr. Mooney is talking about.

And this raises some questions in me. What I saw at the test, and what I've seen in the various videos, are very different. And even if it turns out that the test shows statistically significant results in Mr. Mooney's favor, I still wonder about the dramatic difference in outcomes--stopping punches, pushing back whole lines of people vs. a gentle swaying.

- Tim
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Bill Glasheen
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Empty Force Test

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Tim

We in the scientific community are familiar with a certain practice where a researcher with a bias will speak of "typical results." If it weren't for the scientific method and peer-reviewed journals (as you well know), we'd all be believing a bunch of western voodoo. The best doctors in our western world spend far too much energy defending tradition and folklore. Forget the magic shows.

Any martial arts instructor who has taught for any length of time regularly stumbles on students who fall over whenever you are trying to demonstrate something. As a matter of fact, this is how Rich claims he first stumbled on the phenomenon. In some cases it is particularly annoying because they do so in ways that aren't what you intended. This can be very embarassing. Whenever I sense this nonsense, I will "pull" my technique and expose the suggested response. Similarly if I believed that what I was causing was of value (which it may be), I could always work through a large class and later on come up with a highly-sensitive subject who I can manipulate with seemingly supernatural powers. But can I do this repeatedly with random subjects? That is what we tested. Is this "technique" useful in fighting? Actually in some cases I believe so.

But please, please, don't make it out to be more than it is. Let me send antibiotics to cure you of "Asia disease." We all want to believe in magic, and it's more likely to happen when working with a culture we do not understand. So much is lost in the translation. But in the end, humans respond the same way no matter what side of the earth you come from.

- Bill
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