As I post this, it's 7:00 AM EST, Friday, 14 January, 2000. I just heard a promotion for National Public Radio's sports show Only A Game (broadcast in my area at 7-8 AM on Saturdays) which included mentioning an article on "the Brazilian martial arts' dance, Capoeira."
Thought you might like to know.
"But I get a kick out of you...."
C. Porter
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited January 14, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by student (edited January 14, 2000).]
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Moderator: Available
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Without having heard the NPR report, I can say my one encounter with Capoeira leads me to think it is only a game.
Several years ago, I attended a week long summer camp in aikido. Hours and days long workouts on the basic throws and locks, I was getting good and tired physically and mentally on the "same old things." I come out of the gym and see a bunch of guys in field spinning and kicking in the gathering dusk. How sacreligious (you have to understand the prevailing aikido culture)! What fun it looked! I went over to see what was going go on. Turned out to be the Brazilian contingent which had a bunch of young guys. The had formed a loose circle. Two guys in the middle were "playing" to the rythmic clapping of those forming the circle. The players were doing high, low and arial kicks of largely a spinning variety, with various cartwheel moves thrown in for spice. The kicks never connected though they came close. Rather the "receiver" would flow with the kicker's kick and immediately spin into what of his own. This in turn would leave the initial kicker as the "receiver" and who must then respond accordingly. Every so often, one of the players would reverse spin direction and the receiver immediately followed suit. The game would go on for a number of minutes until one or both players tired from the high energy output.
I watched on the periphery of the circle for a number of rounds. Having been enamored of fancy kicks myself in my younger days, I learned and practiced some of spinning arial stuff myself, enough to do them with balance if not to the proficiency a "spinning top" like some of the TKDers. Anyways, I asked the circle if I could play. One of the Brazilian who spoke English interpreted for me and the group pretty much nodded affirmatively. I asked what the "rules" were. The response was to move and flow and duck with the kicks and the rythym to come back with a kick of my own. I ended up "playing" a couple of rounds and watched a couple more before the dark overtook us.
Capoeira is strenuous and demands flexibility and agility. One learns to move with, back from, or duck under kicks, using that evasive motion as initiation of a counter move. There are definitely skills that can cross over to some martial applications. This led me to ask the Brazilian who spoke English whether Capoeira was ever played with "contact" and whether Capoeira players could fight if need be. The answer -- in broken English -- I gathered is that Capoeira is not played with contact (at least as far as the respondent knew) and the latter part of answer was more or less a shrug.
In retrospect, the "shrug" is as good as answer as any. I don't know if Capoeira players learn to fight from "play." I do know, from the mat, that a couple of the Brazilian boys were rigorous aikidokas. They were strong, rigorous and flexible and seem to like and engage in the "slam and bang" approach to their aikido practice...
david
Several years ago, I attended a week long summer camp in aikido. Hours and days long workouts on the basic throws and locks, I was getting good and tired physically and mentally on the "same old things." I come out of the gym and see a bunch of guys in field spinning and kicking in the gathering dusk. How sacreligious (you have to understand the prevailing aikido culture)! What fun it looked! I went over to see what was going go on. Turned out to be the Brazilian contingent which had a bunch of young guys. The had formed a loose circle. Two guys in the middle were "playing" to the rythmic clapping of those forming the circle. The players were doing high, low and arial kicks of largely a spinning variety, with various cartwheel moves thrown in for spice. The kicks never connected though they came close. Rather the "receiver" would flow with the kicker's kick and immediately spin into what of his own. This in turn would leave the initial kicker as the "receiver" and who must then respond accordingly. Every so often, one of the players would reverse spin direction and the receiver immediately followed suit. The game would go on for a number of minutes until one or both players tired from the high energy output.
I watched on the periphery of the circle for a number of rounds. Having been enamored of fancy kicks myself in my younger days, I learned and practiced some of spinning arial stuff myself, enough to do them with balance if not to the proficiency a "spinning top" like some of the TKDers. Anyways, I asked the circle if I could play. One of the Brazilian who spoke English interpreted for me and the group pretty much nodded affirmatively. I asked what the "rules" were. The response was to move and flow and duck with the kicks and the rythym to come back with a kick of my own. I ended up "playing" a couple of rounds and watched a couple more before the dark overtook us.
Capoeira is strenuous and demands flexibility and agility. One learns to move with, back from, or duck under kicks, using that evasive motion as initiation of a counter move. There are definitely skills that can cross over to some martial applications. This led me to ask the Brazilian who spoke English whether Capoeira was ever played with "contact" and whether Capoeira players could fight if need be. The answer -- in broken English -- I gathered is that Capoeira is not played with contact (at least as far as the respondent knew) and the latter part of answer was more or less a shrug.
In retrospect, the "shrug" is as good as answer as any. I don't know if Capoeira players learn to fight from "play." I do know, from the mat, that a couple of the Brazilian boys were rigorous aikidokas. They were strong, rigorous and flexible and seem to like and engage in the "slam and bang" approach to their aikido practice...
david
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Jubei Kibagami
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- Contact:
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
"Wonderful story, David!! I enjoyed every word of it.
I remember when I first found out about Capoeira, from watching that movie "Only the Strong". I was totally amazed, and then I was able to recognize many capoeira techniques that other martial artists were practicing. Myself, I started out taking Shotokan and TKD for like a year total, then I moved and trained in Karate. I am into the flashy, acrobatic moves, thus I've always wanted to train in Capoeira for cross-training, to learn more kicking techniques, and hand-stand/acrobatic moves. I have been lucky enough to get demo tapes of a real live Roda (if thats how it is spelled) from my friend Tom in California. It is really amazing stuff! Ya probably already know, cut break dancing came from Capoeira..all those headspins, t-flares, ect. are all cap. moves! Also, I have seen many techniques in other arts that are very similar if not the same to Capoeira techniques. Welp, as one of my friends told me, all the arts came from the same source somewhere down the line (that may or not be true, however!) ;^)"
Just my 3 cents,
-Jubei
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[Jubei's Martial Arts Page] http://www.mindspring.com/~justin.king/martial-arts
I remember when I first found out about Capoeira, from watching that movie "Only the Strong". I was totally amazed, and then I was able to recognize many capoeira techniques that other martial artists were practicing. Myself, I started out taking Shotokan and TKD for like a year total, then I moved and trained in Karate. I am into the flashy, acrobatic moves, thus I've always wanted to train in Capoeira for cross-training, to learn more kicking techniques, and hand-stand/acrobatic moves. I have been lucky enough to get demo tapes of a real live Roda (if thats how it is spelled) from my friend Tom in California. It is really amazing stuff! Ya probably already know, cut break dancing came from Capoeira..all those headspins, t-flares, ect. are all cap. moves! Also, I have seen many techniques in other arts that are very similar if not the same to Capoeira techniques. Welp, as one of my friends told me, all the arts came from the same source somewhere down the line (that may or not be true, however!) ;^)"
Just my 3 cents,
-Jubei
------------------
[Jubei's Martial Arts Page] http://www.mindspring.com/~justin.king/martial-arts
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
I think this is just one of many examples where cross-training offers entertainment (at the least) and occasionally benefit. In my aikido days, I got great benefit out of jitterbugging - particularly with partners that did not know me or even those who were marginal dancers. I took a fairly strong lead on the latter, and may women found it refreshing to find someone make them do spins and moves they had never done before. There was a certain joy in the movement and the manipulation that I also found on the aikido mat. Additionally I have begun to explore the following:
* How climbing in a new gymnasium that opened up near us can benefit my hand and finger strenth (or at least give in another avenue of expression)
* How surfing can help my balance (and increase my time in a refreshingly different environment)
* How target shooting can help my mushin (since I have a slight tremor that is minimized with a proper mindset).
Anyhow....sound like this Brazilian game is wonderful fun. Who said we can't have great fun when we practice? Without the games, most of my kid students would never stick with me long enough to learn anything substantive. Very few people have the monk mentality to study only sanchin for 10 years. And frankly the people who could tolerate such a boring regimen aren't the kind of people I'd like to party with.
- Bill
* How climbing in a new gymnasium that opened up near us can benefit my hand and finger strenth (or at least give in another avenue of expression)
* How surfing can help my balance (and increase my time in a refreshingly different environment)
* How target shooting can help my mushin (since I have a slight tremor that is minimized with a proper mindset).
Anyhow....sound like this Brazilian game is wonderful fun. Who said we can't have great fun when we practice? Without the games, most of my kid students would never stick with me long enough to learn anything substantive. Very few people have the monk mentality to study only sanchin for 10 years. And frankly the people who could tolerate such a boring regimen aren't the kind of people I'd like to party with.
- Bill
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
You know, I posted this notice in two other Forums; only here has any one commented about it or Capoeria.
I liked Bill G.'s comment about jitterbugging; I feel almost any dancing helps your balance and motions for martial arts.
Everybody was Uechi Dancing....
Done from their Sanchin stancing....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited January 14, 2000).]
I liked Bill G.'s comment about jitterbugging; I feel almost any dancing helps your balance and motions for martial arts.
Everybody was Uechi Dancing....
Done from their Sanchin stancing....
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited January 14, 2000).]
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RACastanet
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Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Student: Yes, Uechi dancing is a good analogy. Whenever I get a new crop of students I use the reference to line dancing when explaining kata. Our Miss Vicki will then do the Macarena as a demo as well. It lightens the atmosphere.
Rich
Rich
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Jake Steinmann
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- Contact:
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
I once saw a capoeriesta who was teaching at our kung fu school perform a series of back handsprings down the length of the school. What made this really impressive was the fact that he was so drunk he was having trouble standing (we've had some interesing nights at the kwoon)! He's one of the only people I've ever met who can jump straight up, turn around, throw a kick, and land where he starts.
Some of the things I've seen him do are enough to make me believe that a very skilled individual might be able to apply it combatively. Obviously, this is not easy, nor suitable for most people.
On the other hand, it looks really cool, and like a lot of fun! For games with martial applications...I'd love to play that one.
Train Harder! More Chi!
Jake Steinmann
Some of the things I've seen him do are enough to make me believe that a very skilled individual might be able to apply it combatively. Obviously, this is not easy, nor suitable for most people.
On the other hand, it looks really cool, and like a lot of fun! For games with martial applications...I'd love to play that one.
Train Harder! More Chi!
Jake Steinmann
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Tony,
Sure it is. Anything you want, as long as it goes with the beat and is with the feet!
david
Sure it is. Anything you want, as long as it goes with the beat and is with the feet!
david
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Honestly, I hear what you guys are saying and having fun and all but aren't you bringing more to the table on the basis of your experience in Uechi-ryu?
I mean, I got roped into bowling duck pins a few weeks ago. I've done this exactly once before, over 40 years ago, I really didn't want to look a fool but went along 'to be a sport'.
I had 'fun' and got better scores than anyone else (some of whom practice regularly and were astounded that I didn't practice - there was some good humored needling) but I have no illusion this experience helped my Tai Chi Chuan study. Quite the contrary, the only cross-over effect was from the conscious application of studied MA principles to the game of bowling. and I think a lot of this muddies the water.
I might see more benefit in unrelated movement if it were to engage or enlarge the mental aspects of training but I think much of that need to bring things in stems from a lack of creativity or inability to understand or abstract the task at hand. Certainly bowling wouldn't do it for me.
I'm sorry but this probably means I won't be doing the jitter-bug with anyone too soon.
I mean, I got roped into bowling duck pins a few weeks ago. I've done this exactly once before, over 40 years ago, I really didn't want to look a fool but went along 'to be a sport'.
I had 'fun' and got better scores than anyone else (some of whom practice regularly and were astounded that I didn't practice - there was some good humored needling) but I have no illusion this experience helped my Tai Chi Chuan study. Quite the contrary, the only cross-over effect was from the conscious application of studied MA principles to the game of bowling. and I think a lot of this muddies the water.
I might see more benefit in unrelated movement if it were to engage or enlarge the mental aspects of training but I think much of that need to bring things in stems from a lack of creativity or inability to understand or abstract the task at hand. Certainly bowling wouldn't do it for me.
I'm sorry but this probably means I won't be doing the jitter-bug with anyone too soon.
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Tony,
Imagine being in the middle with your partner, both of you are rocking back and forth with the beat. The partner lashes a round type kick. You flow and spin and lash out one of yours. He flows and lashes out another. You flow again but this this time rock away and then back with a kick in the opposite direction. This time the partner flows the other way and spins with another kick.
You get the idea (I hope). Now imagine arial type kicks and cartwheels and handstands, etc. (Don't imagine me doing the acrobatics... I can't!
)
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited January 18, 2000).]
Imagine being in the middle with your partner, both of you are rocking back and forth with the beat. The partner lashes a round type kick. You flow and spin and lash out one of yours. He flows and lashes out another. You flow again but this this time rock away and then back with a kick in the opposite direction. This time the partner flows the other way and spins with another kick.
You get the idea (I hope). Now imagine arial type kicks and cartwheels and handstands, etc. (Don't imagine me doing the acrobatics... I can't!
)david
[This message has been edited by david (edited January 18, 2000).]
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Ok, I agree, I had it coming. But there was no intention to denegrate anyone's ability to imagine. I do see the need for fun.
My point is that, in my opinion, there is a requirement in the martial arts to reach a higher level of concentration that makes comparisons to other activities trivial or superficial to me. There, I said it!
It doesn't work for me and I disagree there's any relationship to being 'a stick in the mud'. In another post, folks waxed eloquent about Einstein when, in fact, he is a fairly typical of someone aspiring to perfection. I'm sure he wasn't a party animal, or maybe he was, I simply don't know and don't care.
To me, it has more to do with one's dedication and ability to be in the moment, to concentrate and in some ways, it's the antithesis of having fun.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited January 18, 2000).]
My point is that, in my opinion, there is a requirement in the martial arts to reach a higher level of concentration that makes comparisons to other activities trivial or superficial to me. There, I said it!
It doesn't work for me and I disagree there's any relationship to being 'a stick in the mud'. In another post, folks waxed eloquent about Einstein when, in fact, he is a fairly typical of someone aspiring to perfection. I'm sure he wasn't a party animal, or maybe he was, I simply don't know and don't care.
To me, it has more to do with one's dedication and ability to be in the moment, to concentrate and in some ways, it's the antithesis of having fun.
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited January 18, 2000).]
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
Phil
Fear not...I will never ask you to dance with me.
You are entitled to your feelings of "terrible purpose." To some, work in the dojo or similar training hall is tantamount to a religious experience. And spending long periods of time on Van's page will make you think that you'll die DIE DIE unless you knock off the foolishness and snap your feeble head to attention. But then you should go visit someone that Van respects very much - Bob Campbell.
Bobby is only a sparring champion and the only person I know who could spar in the All Okinawa Tournament like you and I would drive to work. Bobby started martial arts as a child. A child pridigy to be exact. Later on he became an enormously successful teacher of children. Bobby will tell you that you cannot get into the heads of children with traditional martial arts. You need to make it fun. I second that from personal experience. What good is the high-powered dog food if the dogs won't eat the stuff? And Bobby is not alone.
Another point... Perhaps you feel the way you do about the serious nature of your practice because it addresses your weaknesses. Just perhaps. Every person will need to customize his/her training to needs. And everyone needs to find ways to just do it. You may feel comfortable playing basketball for Bobby Knight. But I'd rather play for Pete Gillen of UVa. Pete is best known for his sense of humor in front of reporters and with his team. They love to play for him. Oh and by the way, they kicked UNC's butt last night. First time in a long time. Thanks, Pete! I think we'll keep you.
And since you brought up Einstein, he was known to play violin on occasion (and I don't think he was a maestro). There is more than one photo to back my claim. He was both party man and womanizer. And yes...the relationship has been made between music playing and absract, mathematical thinking. I personally am a product of that brand of cross-training. And other studies have shown that playing games and engaging in "dramatic" activities increases the rate of learning of languages. Yes, game playing recruits special parts of the brain that allow unique types of learning to occur. Without the "mind of a child", a second language will always be just that. And martial arts is - after all - a type of language.
So....please don't call the police if we in the upstairs apartment are partying just a little too much... And we'll do our best not to interrupt your beauty rest :-)
- Bill
Fear not...I will never ask you to dance with me.
You are entitled to your feelings of "terrible purpose." To some, work in the dojo or similar training hall is tantamount to a religious experience. And spending long periods of time on Van's page will make you think that you'll die DIE DIE unless you knock off the foolishness and snap your feeble head to attention. But then you should go visit someone that Van respects very much - Bob Campbell.
Bobby is only a sparring champion and the only person I know who could spar in the All Okinawa Tournament like you and I would drive to work. Bobby started martial arts as a child. A child pridigy to be exact. Later on he became an enormously successful teacher of children. Bobby will tell you that you cannot get into the heads of children with traditional martial arts. You need to make it fun. I second that from personal experience. What good is the high-powered dog food if the dogs won't eat the stuff? And Bobby is not alone.
Another point... Perhaps you feel the way you do about the serious nature of your practice because it addresses your weaknesses. Just perhaps. Every person will need to customize his/her training to needs. And everyone needs to find ways to just do it. You may feel comfortable playing basketball for Bobby Knight. But I'd rather play for Pete Gillen of UVa. Pete is best known for his sense of humor in front of reporters and with his team. They love to play for him. Oh and by the way, they kicked UNC's butt last night. First time in a long time. Thanks, Pete! I think we'll keep you.
And since you brought up Einstein, he was known to play violin on occasion (and I don't think he was a maestro). There is more than one photo to back my claim. He was both party man and womanizer. And yes...the relationship has been made between music playing and absract, mathematical thinking. I personally am a product of that brand of cross-training. And other studies have shown that playing games and engaging in "dramatic" activities increases the rate of learning of languages. Yes, game playing recruits special parts of the brain that allow unique types of learning to occur. Without the "mind of a child", a second language will always be just that. And martial arts is - after all - a type of language.
So....please don't call the police if we in the upstairs apartment are partying just a little too much... And we'll do our best not to interrupt your beauty rest :-)
- Bill
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
It's a more nuanced argument than my weaknesses or the "ascetic nerds" versus "animal house". Feed a dog only what's good for him and watch him after hunger kicks in. Also, I don't know anyone who studied in the rigorous regimen you described that isn't a dynamite martial artist, but I know plenty from the party school that don't make it to brown belt.
It's simple. There's a need for balance; that the 'cross-over effect' in unrelated activities is often suspect, generally sourced from the martial arts training base in the first place and in all cases has no relation to the kind of people anyone wants to party with.
It's simple. There's a need for balance; that the 'cross-over effect' in unrelated activities is often suspect, generally sourced from the martial arts training base in the first place and in all cases has no relation to the kind of people anyone wants to party with.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Rigorous, traditional schools are fine. I operate one myself...when teaching adults....ninety-five percent of the time. Kids are different. If your goal is to touch as many lives as possible, you'll quickly adjust your approach. There are an array of ways to trigger learning that don't involve the "traditional" - that work.
I'd be more impressed if you spoke of a random sample of 100 each going through two different methods rather than making assessment on the select group (often quite small) that results from those who chose to stick with a particular paradigm. We all have our biases and preferences. We all see what we want to see. But what does properly-generated evidence show?
I can't comment on the rest of your post.
- Bill
May I be blunt? Can you contribute to the subject in this thread? It's far from controversial. Otherwise...there are bigger dragons to slay.
- The moderator
True...but only when you have the dog caged and he has no other options. Humans generally have choice. If a dog does, then you can forget the cod liver oil.Feed a dog only what's good for him and watch him after hunger kicks in.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
A common debating "tactic" - create an unreasonable (and in this case inaccurate) straw man and then destroy it. Party school???? Before you continue farther in a discussion like this, perhaps you might like to read the educational literature. The role of game-playing in learning is documented. I'm not making this up.I don't know anyone who studied in the rigorous regimen you described that isn't a dynamite martial artist, but I know plenty from the party school that don't make it to brown belt.
Rigorous, traditional schools are fine. I operate one myself...when teaching adults....ninety-five percent of the time. Kids are different. If your goal is to touch as many lives as possible, you'll quickly adjust your approach. There are an array of ways to trigger learning that don't involve the "traditional" - that work.
I'd be more impressed if you spoke of a random sample of 100 each going through two different methods rather than making assessment on the select group (often quite small) that results from those who chose to stick with a particular paradigm. We all have our biases and preferences. We all see what we want to see. But what does properly-generated evidence show?
I can't comment on the rest of your post.
- Bill
May I be blunt? Can you contribute to the subject in this thread? It's far from controversial. Otherwise...there are bigger dragons to slay.
- The moderator
Capoeira on NPR's "Only A Game"
X... the last paragraph of the last post is my final observation, considering the reaction. I'm not sure further explanation from me will add anything (it can only detract at this point) or considered a welcome contribution. Therefore, like Bill says, there are 'more important fish to fry' and I'd prefer to move on.
